General Chat

This has been a very interesting and civilised discussion.

I too pray that Emma is at peace.

If such a difficult subject can be discussed so thoughtfully it does make some squabbles look rather petty.

Very best wishes from me too.

Sue
x

I think many thanks are due to all who have maintained a peaceful discussion on this site. Those earlier that were insulting etc just because they didn't agree with the principles involved that resulted in this lovely lady losing her life no longer post.

I feel sure, based on my sister's own experience, there is a lot more to this story that we know nothing about. I find it hard to believe that someone would die just because there was massive haemorrhaging when there are cell saver machines available which harvest and purify any lost blood and return it back in a healthy state to the patient. Added to that the volume expanders, erythropoieten (which as I said earlier is part of the body's natural mechanism to reproduce red blood cells), large doses of iron to fight the anaemia and doses of antibiotics which can be used to fight any possible infection.

In view of all of the above, Emma was dedicated to her faith as was her immediate family, she will not have gone without a brave fight knowing she had given birth to two lovely babies and without the trust and hopefully the best efforts of the medical profession around her.

I know that Emma's children will be looked after, they have their father who is going through turmoil coping with the loss of his devoted wife and the joy of the birth of their two children. They will also have the loving care of their extended family who must be going through the same turmoil. They will also receive the blessings and support, not from just the local congregation but congregations around them.

If Emma's death is not to be in vain - and I have said before that this kind of situation is very rare - then an assurance that cell saver machines and trained operators are available at all times. Having a trainded operator on call is crucial. There are many non-witness people who most definitely would not have a blood transfusion including the anaesthetist who was involved in one of my operations.

It is because of the stand that JWs have made over the years that alternatives and machines such as cell savers have come into existence. JWs fund and supply the cost of Cell Saver machines to many hospitals throughout the world. They're not cheap, they can cost around £7 000 each. JWs make contributions from their own resources to make this possible.

Many thanks again to all who have contribued to a diplomatic discussion of this issue. Hopefully too with some of the explanations given on this thread, a wider understanding of the beliefs of JWs has been achieved.

Best wishes to all.
Lyn x

Roxanne, I can tell you do xxxx

I agree Linda:-))

I think we have all put our points over in a very civilized manner, I have enjoyed it:-))

Viv,I apologise if I have misunderstood you, which it seems I have.

We all have our own feelings about certain issues,thats normal, its being able to accept that we are all different and all have our separate paths to go in order to find our spirituality.

I just want to add that with reference to the young woman that died, I hope her soul is at peace and I hope her family do find comfort with her strong beliefs.
I mean that sincerely.

Sue, you do not need to wonder any more as i did not say there are a lot of people on here making comments and not reading the posts properly, I said
"I think there are,"
and you are right i can play with anagrams all i like and i agree
It is good we can hold a proper debate without it degenerating into the sort of quarrel that has been known on this site:-)))

Dear Roxanne..
If you read my comment again, you will understand how upsetting, and vile I think war is, I have not said I am ungrateful to anyone. my own flesh and blood died, and fought in those wars....( and I have relatives who still are).
My point was, that world religions are instrumental in these wars, and yet some people do not want to partake in warfare, are vilified for standing by their beliefs, .(whether religous or not).
I admire anyone who stands by such a belief....
and I admire those who make a stand for others...but my heart fell sympathetic to everyone..

Unfortunatly the world is full of des-pots, and power crazy men who want to rule.
As I said earlier the Pope seemed to think it might be ok to live under Hitlers regime......???

Why can't we just accept that we all march to different beat of the drum, or whatever.........
Yes blessed are the peacemakers..whoever you percieve them to be......
regards to everyone
without malice
v.

I'm wondering who these many people making comments and not reading all the posts are? I wasn't aware of any and I've been making a lot of comments.

Please be assured Linda that every post I've made has been thought about and considered very carefully before being added. I am pleased we have been able to hold a proper debate without it degenerating into the sort of quarrel that has been known on this site.

Incidentally you can play with anagrams all you like but as Santa was originally from the name of Saint Nicholas (ie Santa Claus) then that seems a bit irrelevant. He's Father Christmas in my house anyway!
One of my children said when she realised he didn't actually exist that he represents the spirit of Christmas and that was fine by her. But that is all rather going off at a tangent.

I think we went beyond just discussing this case in particular some time ago and we have been thinking about the whole principle of the thing.

The point I was making was that someone at some time has had to select which parts of the scriptures are to be taken literally while other passages can be viewed as symbolic truths. Once a human being has made a decision and it becomes a point of belief for a group then I get worried because I do not think anybody has a "hotline" to God. I will (as I have done numerous times) read the Holy Book and make my own decision.

If it were blatantly obvious how it should all be interpreted then we wouldn't be having this discussion since each of the religions based on Judeo-Christianity would be saying the same.

Yes people have died for their faith and not just in the early days of the church. One of my ancestors had to escape from persecution during the reign of Queen Mary I and her memoirs describe how she feared for her life and for the lives and souls of her children.

It is very comforting to belong to a group and accept a set of rules to live by. We all do this in one way or another. Young people are searching for their beliefs. I know when I was a student many sects and political groups hunted out new members in my college. The advantage of a long life is the chance to find out whether any choices made in youth were how you feel later.

Sue
x

I think of those people who fought in those wars as PEACEMAKERS!!!
In World War 1 and World War 11, you too should be grateful to those who gave their lives so you could live in relative peace!

War Is awful,it is the worst thing anyone can go through, but men and women gave their lives for you and I,you should be Thankful!!

Can you Imagine living under a nazi regime,where you are not allowed to be yourself or practice your faith,I can not!

Yes,
Linda, you are right, know one knows how they would react untill faced with such situations first hand.
and as I have said before..'Joe public' does not know the 'ins and outs' of this particular case!!

I wonder how the jews felt when facing the nazis bullets..and gas chambers...........just for being born a jew.....The rest of the world just stood by for ages before they did anything to stop it!!! .
The catholic church (the pope) signed a document that allied itself with Hitler and the nazi regime.......Catholics in Britain were fighting catholics in Germany, and yet each were praying to their god, each were blessing their troops, in the name of their god, the same god.
but when individuals stood up and said NO they shot them, hanged them, imprisoned them.


I wonder how those young soldiers felt when forced to take up arms and kill....................when they wasn't even old enough to vote............or get married without consent......

I wonder how the families of soldiers ,who, would not take up arms felt when, their sons, husbands, fathers were shot as cowards just cuz they could not bring themselves to kill others..........(some of these were not even religous at all, just principled people)
If anyone is interested to know, they can go on numerous sites to do with war and find evidence of consciencous objecters!!! and the fate that befell them...

Thats why Jesus said......
BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS FOR THEY SHALL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!!
v

Linda:-))
You can do that with a lot of words,Im sure,I know I can:-)))

heres another wee thing that i find interesting its strange that Santa happens to be an anagram of Satan,
I know that was random but i had to mention it.

I have never heard my sister or daughter mention of anyone being disassociated from the Kingdom hall for refusing blood, again i think i mentioned in an earlier post that everyones situation is different and no-one knows how they will react when faced with a life or death situation and i am sure that if someone did take a transfusion the elders would look and take this into account, depending on the circumstances, we are only human and anyone who did take blood, i am sure that is up to them and their conscience, in the early days sadly many of Jesus's followers lost their life for their love of Jesus and his father. This is only my opinion, I am not speaking for the Kingdom Hall,
I also think a lot of people are adding comments and not taking time to read all the posts.
Lyn and Viviene, I am very proud of you both.
Take Care Everyone, xxxx

Sue, when I said that JWs don't take everything literally, there are some points that are taken literally. Love your borther as yourself, do as you would be done by, not commintting fornication - which incidentally is in the same passage in the new testament as not partaking of blood - not killing your fellow man to name but a few. The fact that old testament scriptures are backed up in the new testament and have been done so by Jesus is evidence, as I said earlier, even with the passage of time of hundreds of years between the old and the new testament, that the principle remains the same. The whole book of Revelation right at the end of the bible is not a book that is taken literally. The book is written in symbolic language with images for example to represent the world powers that have and still do exist - Roman, Babylonian, Medo-Persian and the current Anglo-American to name but a few. Referrring back to the blood issue, it is only after examining the scriptures and cross referencing these that conclusions are drawn that this particular issue still needs to be observed today.

Roxanne, with regard to your question I cannot personally answer you. As I have said in earlier posts on this thread, whilst I do retain a degree of knowledge re what is expected of a JW, I haven't attended for quite some time now. Even while I was attending which was for more than thirty years, never in all that time did I personally come across anybody who received a blood transfusion let alone being excommunicated. I do know, on the other hand, many, many JWs who were told they would lose their life if they didn't accept a transfusion (my sister included) and actually made a full recovery, even very young babies. I don't know personally of any that adhered to their prinicples and lost their life as a result. Perhaps it's a question for any who are reading this and know the answer or indeed for the next JWs to call at your door. I think that shows just how rare it is that JWs refuse blood and die, there are many, many more JWs who do not lose their life after refusal to accept blood but sadly these are not reported.

Lyn x

Yes,You do get" Extremists" In all Religions,I agree.

One that sticks In my mind Is some Christian organization(I don't know the name of the group/church) actually thought Harry Potter books and films were EVIL! now in my mind that's Idiotic,
But each to there own.
My Question still has not been answered properly.
If A member of the J.W church did have a blood transfusion would they be Excommunicated from the church?

It is interesting to read your comments Lyn. I was especially interested that the JWs do not take everything literally.
I had thought that the blood issue was due to literal interpretation of texts but what you say now suggests that it has been decided upon for some other reason. I think this means someone at some time has made a decision about these particular verses of the Bible and decided that this is the way JWs are going to interpret them.
If it is a health issue then an analogy might be the food rules of perhaps Jews and Moslems.
I then wonder if someone from a religion with strict Kosher like food regulations were stranded on a desert island where all there was to eat was wild boar and shellfish, could they eat them to save their life? That might be a similar situation to a JW being faced with the choice of a transfusion to save a life.

To be honest we haven't seen a JW at our door for many years and I've not seen any Mormons around in the village since my children were small so perhaps they stick to towns these days.
My experience with those I called "fundamentalists" has tended to be the ones I've met who have been of groups similar to Plymouth Brethren. On the occasions when I have attempted to discuss with them I have usually found it very frustrating. I worked for one once. He was the head of the school where I taught. Lovely man, and he and his wife are still friends but he was never happy when I did projects on dinosaurs etc. with my class. The wicked streak in me used to mean we did some really great big wall displays!!

Sue
x

My Aunt and two cousins are jw's but my Uncle refused to join for this very reason, that he would concent to a blood transfusion it's soo sad to lose a mum this way

Sue

You've raised some interesting points on your post.

Just to clear up something you commented. You refer, I presume to JWs when you refer to fundamentalists. As we know, the definition of a fundamentalist is someone who takes the interpretation of every word in the sacred texts as literal truth. Jehovah's Witnesses do not take everything they read in the bible as 'literal'. There are certain texts, like the ones used to explain the 'blood issue' that are cross referenced with both the old and new testament, important as the passage of time from early days through to the time when Jesus was on earth didn't dilute the reasons for God considering blood as sacred. It didn't therefore change the ruling that 'man should not partake of blood.'

Back in the day, of course they didn't have blood transfusions so it could be argued that it didn't apply to that. By way of comparison, if a reformed alcoholic was told not to drink alcohol any longer as it could seriously damage his health, would it be acceptable for that person to have alcohol fed intraveniously? The same principle applies to blood and the stand JWs take on the matter.

JWs, contrary to what you said in your comment, will be more than happy to discuss with you the reasoning behind refusal to accept blood transfusions or any other aspect of their beliefs if you wish them to do so. I know your comparison was preaching rather than discussing but I know there are more JWs willing to discuss and explain than there are dogmatic ones wishing to just preach at you. If you look back over this thread, my comments have been by way of discussion and not by preaching. They hopefully have cleared up some misconceptions regarding the whole theme of this thread. As I said in an earlier comment, if you do come across any JWs that preach at you that is down to their personality not direction received from the platform of the Kingdom Halls they attend.

Hopefully this has helped clarify those two points at least.

Best wishes,
Lyn x

Zealots of any persuasion are irritating if they push their beliefs on others. I think converts are more likely to be made if they admire the holders of particular views but there are always the impressionable who can be convinced I suppose.

I'm not sure I could say that I respect everyone's religion. I respect everyone's right to have a religion of their choice but there are some religious dogmas which seem dangerous to me or in some cases just silly.

In a free society we can believe what we like but there are people out there who have the weirdest beliefs. I've come across the idea that all the powerful people in the world are in fact alien lizards (including the Royal Family!). This doesn't seem to take into account that everyone of European descent is probably a distant cousin of modern royals. That makes me a lizard since I have descent from Edward III.

There were some really gentle and nice tribesmen on TV a few weeks ago whose religious belief included that Prince Philip is the son of their deity and he will one day go home to their island.

Living near Glastonbury I see some strange New Age beliefs in and around the town.

From the outside looking in, many religions and beliefs look peculiar and difficult to understand. I am interested in trying to understand why people believe what they do but fundamentalists of any type rarely wish to discuss, only to preach.

I have friends of many beliefs.....some of my dearest friends are celebrating Diwali this weekend.
It can make for interesting parties and gatherings.....especially if my creationist friends meet my daughter, the paleoanthropologist!

Sue
x

I have no doubt that when those babies are adults their mother will be held up as some kind of martyr and that will make them strong in their belief also - I have a notice on my front door to deter door to door salesmen and have this year added JWs following a visit from some last Easter when they were extremely patronising towards me. When I informed them that as a churchgoer I was aware that Easter was an important time in the Christian calendar they said "we are very glad to hear it!" I respect everyone's religion, but don't try and push it in my face. Ann, Cardiff

Some musings on that Vivienne,

You've lived 30 years longer than 22 already and all being well you ought to live into your 80s. So you could perhaps have a life some 60 years longer than this girl Emma.

You sound like an interesting, thoughtful person who has presumably not been sitting at home doing nothing for the past 30 years. How many people's lives has yours affected in that time? Plenty I am sure. Have other lives been changed by your linking in some way with them?

I emphasise that I believe the quality of a life should be judged on its content not its length, but having a longer time does give more opportunity for good works and the chance to make a difference in the world.

Some people's lives are tragically cut short and we are especially sad when a young person dies for whatever reason. When an old person dies we feel it is easier to celebrate a life of achievements (and I don't mean simply material achievements).

As for looking for potential.....I think we can all try to make the best we can of our lives and if we have a dream we can at least go someway towards fulfilling it.

Sue