General Chat

Modern scholarship puts the possible date for compilation of St John's Gospel at between 90 and 110AD and it was possibly written in Ephesus. The discourses are long and differ markedly from the other 3 books. It terminates abruptly at chapter 16.8 and continues thereafter as a sort of addendum. The original scriptures were written in a debased archaic language, mostly on papyrus, and lost much of the original meaning when translated into Greek, Latin and later into English. Most early manuscripts were lost in the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD70 and it was only by a prodigious stroke of luck in discovering the Dead Sea Scrolls that modern researchers have been able to gain such insight into the times. Naturally, today’s church dignitaries are not keen on the Dead Sea Scrolls being made generally available as they contain so much contradictory material. The division of the text of the Bible into numbered verses, as in the Authorised Version, has no authority behind it and was the invention of a Frenchman Robert Etienne in 1551.

I have not been on the PC since during last night, so I haven't been able to follow this thread until now. I have just read all replies and have appreciated the comments, most of which were very valid. However, I must object to those who state categorically that you can be either Christian or Spiritualist but not both as the two don't go hand in hand. I find it very sad that people can spout like this when they obviously know nowt about nowt to do with Spiritualism. I am a Christian Spiritualist and I find it slanderous to hear otherwise. My marriage certificate states that I was married in a Christian Church. This being a legal document would not have this written if it were not legally true. The Christian Spiritualist Church believes in Jesus Christ and his teachings, the SNU Church calls him Jesus the Nazarene, both are correct as Jesus was a Nazarene. All Christian Churches teach that on the third day Christ rose and appeared to his disciples. It was his Spirit they saw - he didn't suddenly come alive again!! I would like to bet that each and every one of us hopes to get to Heaven when we pass over. What is Heaven but the Spirit World. And if Spirit doesn't exist, then neither do we because your spirit is your personality/your soul. I would never condemn any other religion for their beliefs, nor would I ever say they were pretending to be something they were not. Basically I would not talk out of my bum but would spend many many years investigating a religion from the inside first before saying anything. Something which has very obviously not been done by some posters here. Dianne xx

I do not accept things easily and invariably question everything. If I can poke holes in a theory I will - and it deserves to be knocked down if it cannot stand questioning. I would not say that I want to believe in anything particular. I was quite happy when I did not. I do not accept any sectarian religion and am still bit hazy about 'God'. What does amaze me is a person who pays lip-service to a religious group but who does not believe in the basic principles of their own belief system. They have the makings of first-class politicians. I know so-called Christians who do not believe in such an entity as a soul let alone a ghost.. Also, I have little respect for those who belittle and denounce out of hand concepts put forward by others without having done any research or investigationof their own. Now that is real bigotry! Best not enter into dialogue with a closed mind. I would suggest that the authors of the New Testament (particularly St Paul) fitted up Jesus to conform to the prophecies of the Old Testament. Possibly, of the 'big four' only Luke was independent, the other books being composed from many sources. The Acts and most of the other gospels emanated from St Paul or his acolytes. If any one is interested in reading what went on in the world at the time of Jesus, try Seneca, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger. Other writers, although not historians as such, were Plutarch and Pliny the Elder (he was a naturalist whereas his son was interested in politics and history). Naturally, these wrote from the Roman angle. Seneca is good as he was contemporary and anti-Nero (the emperor from AD38) and explained the political reasons (to divert popular anger away from Nero) behind the persecution of the tiny Christian Sect, which got Nero temporarily off the hook after the burning of Rome - and pleased the Jews. It also martyred the Christians and gave their cause an enormous boost. Christianity, in its present form, was not founded by Jesus (who is well-documented other than in the Scriptures) but by his followers - and probably would have fizzled out but for one remarkable man who took it over some 20-30 years after The Crucifixion. Jesus was a mystic (there were a lot of them about at the time) and more of a political activist with an ideal (as was Marx) and a member of a movement called 'The Way'. He was also anti-Roman, the governing body. It is probable that he travelled armed, as did most males at the time. He and his followers were a thorn in the flesh of the Roman Administration who kept tabs on him and documented his activities. He had several brothers and possibly sisters. The remarkable man referred to above was a Jew born in Eastern Turkey (Tarsus, according to St Luke) by the name of Saul. He had Roman citizenship, was a tent-maker and supplier to the Roman army so was well-heeled and much travelled with many social and business contacts in the Mediterranean world. In the way of the upwardly-mobile he was a great follower of the temptations of the flesh and enthusiastically joined in baiting helpless minorities (in that day and age being the Christians), as encouraged by Nero the Emperor. Saul made many journeys in pursuit of business and social matters and, when on the road to Damascus, it would appear that he suffered a minor stroke which, upon recovery from, he concluded was a warning shot from God over his sins of the past, in particular his attitude towards Christians. So he became a typical re-actionary, changing his name to Paul and going to extremes to reverse his previous life-style, condemning all pleasures of the flesh and whole-heartedly supporting Christians and becoming self-appointed Director and Administrator of their Church, a post he filled admirably and his directives fill much of the New Testament. Had it not been for Paul, we may today have been worshipping Mithras who was gaining in popularity at the time. Mithraic altars have been found in Britain. Mahomet, who founded Islam, was born in Mecca in AD570. He was of Semitic stock, probably from Christian Arab tribes. Therefore, Judaism (a belief in one God), Christianity and Islam arose from a common source with an affinity with the Old Testament. Naturally, after he started preaching 'There is but one God' (Allah – from Ilãh, Arabic for ‘The God’) his new creed was mocked by the establishment- but his followers eventually got it off the ground. Muslims regard Jesus as an important prophet and also recognise Mary as a major figure in the scriptures. All three major religions share a history and owe much to each other. Sadly, the adherents of each (not to mention factions within each) will not give one another an inch of leeway and contain in their ranks hosts of bigots who are prepared to coerce, maim and kill in the name of what they perceive to be their true God.

Sometimes if I feel the need I go to 'the Stuppa' (buddhist temple) I find it relaxing and calming, I find the buddhist faith makes sense , to me, it seems to mirror my beliefs. I have so many thoughts about religion,faith I dont think I can honestly say Im this or Im that.

What a good thread! Thanks, Paul. I only get uncomfortable talking about religion when someone is trying to ram their views down my throat. After all, no-one has conclusive proof of what is 'right' or 'wrong' so why get in a tizzy about anything? Seems to me that, apart from extremists, everyone looks to their religion, even if they consider themselves as atheist or agnostic, for the same things - a reason for being and guidelines for how to live a 'good' life. I don't see anything to argue about there.

I was always told in the Army that the two topics you never discuss for fear of an argument were Politics and Religion. My thoughts on the matter are if you belive good for you , if you do'nt belive good for you. All I know is that having seen what humans can do to each other over religion then the weapon was mightier than the Church.

Can I just say I have found this a really good thread, and have been reading it on and off most of the day;; No I do not feel uncomfartable talking about religion as long as it is discussed well. which this one has. As a child I used to go to C/E church 10am, leave there go to Catholic church with my friend then on afternoon Salvation Army with another friend, then sunday night to the Kingdom Hall with my grandad who was a Jehovas Wittness. All through my life I have only gone to a church as and when, Until 25yrs ago when Hubby and I wanted to get married,no one would marry us only the Baptist as we were both divorced, yet we were both the innocent parties in our marriage break ups. So after attending for nearly yr decided that I really wanted to go back to C/E church, but for no special reason; Started to go regular with my daughters and loved it, one daughter went on to be Altar girl, but when it came to her moving up school she decided to go to Catholic school as she wanted to go somewhere more stricter, anyway I am rambling a bit here so, what I want to say is even though been to all these then main things I have grown up with is 1) Be nice do unto others as you would onto yourself,be nice to each other life is to short not to. 2) We all basically want to believe in something bigger than us, most religion is to a God how do we know its not the same god?. Live and let live is my motto, and try not to judge others none of us knows what is round the next corner,, And as for Spiritulists would love to go but never got the nerve up to do so, after uncle told me at 15 you have the gift,sared the daylights out of me then, dont know about now !! Babs

Vivien, I too had a huge 'white wedding' the first time I even had a 'nuptial mass', my marriage dident last , he was not my soul mate, and I have to say the ceremony dident mean much to me and at that time I was a big church goer. my now husband is my soul mate, we were married in a registry office, but I can honestly say that I meant every vow,

Couldnt agree more Jean and not an easy subject....very good thread Paul. Donna

Oh Vivienne, that sounds so special. I am God Mother to my sister (big age gap due to second marriage), i agreed to be more of a gardian rather than 'godmother'. I was baptised RC and i can honestly say, i know little about the faith. Donna

Hi Donna, we are not allowing offence on here, so no you haven't offended anyone. This has been a very good open discussion with lots of differing views expressed. I was a hypocrite when I first got married. By that time I had given up going to church but got married in the parish high church because it was the thing to do. The words that were said didn't really mean much to me. When I married for the second time I married in an SNU church & the words of the ceremony are so special & although my husband has gone before me, we will celebrate our silver & golden wedding anniversaries, whether I am still here or with him on the other side. He is & always will be my husband Vivienne

lol good point!

I don't know if it has occured to anyone but the people who feel uncomfortable when talking about religion are probably not on this thread anyway:))

vivienne, no it shouldn't be. i have always kept an open mind on this. I have read books but never taken it any further. Ann glos

I don't like being told I should be religious. One of my Aunts is very religious and says the family has always been so and that I should follow suit. I'm sorry but as far as I'm concerned I don't believe. I don't offend those who do believe either, at the end of the day it's their choice, just as my choice not to believe is mine. Joy

Hi Ann, The phrase Eternal Rest is to what I refer. You see even Christians have diferent interpretations of what is written. I believe we pass on to another plain where we have more lessons to learn, no chance of a rest. lol If there is, as I believe, another plain of consciousness,[which is of higher beings than this one] why should it be beyond the bounds of reason that they should communicate with us. Vivienne

I could get shot down for this, i personally dont believe i need a church to pray. I wouldnt get married in church for that belief either........ i dont attend church, so felt i shouldnt be married in church. I am also a firm believer, religion causes alot of unrest in the world. I hope i havent offended anyone and will delete if i have.

while tracing my family tree one side of my family(mothers side) were all church people the line starting from 1650s to 1890 all the men were clergymen, one thing I find odd is that around the early 1800s they suddenly changed from weslayans to church of england. so really with my ancestry I should go to church!lol

an interesting thread and an emotive subject. However, congratulations to everyone taking part for their tolerance. I was brought up in a Baptist home, both parents were baptists, as were grandparents. My Maternal grandmother and my Mother were both very true to their faiths. I went to the baptist Sunday School from the age of 5 and to church from the age of 11. I was baptised (my choice) by immersion at the age of 15. I more or less stopped going to church when I moved away from my home town and was unable to find a church where I felt comfortable. when i went our Baptist church (Hampshire) was very 'chapel', very welcoming to everybody and friendly. Elsewhere I did not find the welcome I expected and felt uncomfortable as a newcomer. Through the years I have only twice found the same atmosphere, once at the church my grandsons went to boys brigade - a village methodist church, and once at a ecumenical church in Milton Keynes where my daughter in law goes. My home church went 'happy clappy' to quote somebody on here a couple of years before my Mum died and she was not happy with it but continued to attend. However, I am telling you this to explain why I don't attend church, and yes I do have occasional pangs of guilt about it because I was brought up being told that you couldn't be a Christian and not go to church. Well I am - a Christian I mean, I still believe in the things I learnt as I grew up. I am a little confused Vivienne because one of your postings seemed to insinuate that Christians believed in a big sleep whereas spiritualists believe in a life after death. I don't know what form it will take but I, as a Christian, believe that when i die I will go to meet all those who have gone before me. I also believe that they watch over me from wherever they are. and the fundamental belief of a Christian is that Christ was the son of God and that he died for us. Like mot people I am not always comfortable speaking about religion, but that is because so many people have fixed ideas and are not tolerant when it comes to a discussion. Ann Glos

Roxanne :-)) Janice