General Chat

So that's how it shaped up, is it? :-D :-D :-D

Just thinking....was this result a confirmation that all the old dears haven't died off that voted to leave before as some have wished/thought or was it a vote against a party leader....reading various headlines it could be either or.

I think people had had enough of being in limbo. We have had three years of not knowing what was going to happen with nobody have proper power to negotiate with.

The populace had voted democratically to leave but that decision was under threat and nothing was moving on.

I just think that people wanted things to get going and, sadly, Jeremy Corbin was the greatest obstacle to this happening..

The current "deal" due to come in effect Jan 31 is only the divorce settlement, considerably inferior to the May deal which Johnson voted against.

It may come as a surprise to many but on 1 Feb 2020 affairs will go on exactly as before during the "transition" with the major difference being UK loss of voting rights on anything but liable for all the bills and subject to any new laws. No MEPs either which will inconvenience Farage's cash flow.

From there on out Johnson will have to negotiate a trade deal with the EU. There is nobody at all with any kind of experience with such matters who thinks a deal can be done in a year. The minideal with Canada took 7 years.

Workington man might find the ongoing and contentious discussions an unwelcome surprise . Of course Johnson could pull out and go for what is loosely called "WTO Rules". There are myriad obstacles to that but it would be a sure fire way to crash the economy.

The real job starts 1 February and I have not the slightest doubt that Johnson and his crew are not up to it.

As for the opposition ... Labour might well be in its death throes as Lansman, Long-Bailey & co fight over the corpse in plain sight of Keith Starmer. The Liberals still need to figure out what they there for.

Only the SNP have a clear idea of what they are doing. Johnson cannot block a legal referendum on Scots independence - Article 1 UN.

"The principle of self-determination is prominently embodied in Article I of the Charter of the United Nations. All peoples have the right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

Admittedly the Brits have blocked the Chagos Islanders while using the same article to defend the Falkland Islands. And Rockall.

The DUP last seats inc Dodd their chief at Westminster. The legal structure for an Irish reunification referendum is already in place as part of the GFA. The DUP will no longer in a position to block it after the upcoming Stormont elections.

And so there is a better than evens chance that Johnson will go down in the history books as the last prime minister of the UK following the traditions set out by Lord North.

Some histories end with a bang - the Third Reich, Yugoslavia, the French Revolution, some start with one - USA - but the UK is on track to end with a whimper, its independence signed away to a bureaucrat in the West Wing.

Interesting statistics are:

52% of the vote was for Remain supporting parties and 48% for Leave parties.

Votes cast for Conservatives was virtually the same as for Labour Plus Lib Dems, but that gave them 365 seats against 214. How fair is that?

Going back to the start of modern parliamentary democracy in 1837 (Great Reform Act - end of rotten boroughs) elections were designed to get a result and freeze out an new boys. Thus thanks to first-past-the-post the Tories and Whigs/Liberals had it all to themselves for all of the C19.

Despite the industrial muscle of the trade unions the new kid on the block was unable to form a majority government until 1945. The social achievements of Atlee and the later Wilson admin created a bedrock for ordinary people which the Tories when in power wanted to erase but never quite dared to.

FPTP also exaggerated the majorities of Thatcher and Blair neither of whom were inclined to alter the system fair or not as it kept out the Liberals and misc nationalists esp the SNP.

The coalition offered a referendum with a new voting system based on alternative vote. It was rejected for being unfair and overly complex. Cameron's govt wanted something that would fail and they succeeded.

Fair or not the UK is now stuck with Johnson & brexit for the immediate future. However it is well to bear in mind that political projects not based on a clear majority always fail, no exceptions.

But they do have a clear majority in the house which at the end of the day is all that matters....

No Caroline it is not.

e.g. Thatcher had a huge majority for the poll tx which was supposed to replace the unfair system of rates. More than anything it destroyed her administration. Blair had a big majority for the Iraq war, what good did it do him?

Johnson has promised all manner of things to trad Labour seats which will be looking for changes in benefit rules, much better schools and hospitals, a proper rail system other than HS2, and the better jobs which are the only way the wasteland shopping streets can recover.

All of these things cost serious money and cannot be delivered without tax increases and sig govt borrowing. The UK is already running an 8% trade deficit.
The Brexit trade deal, if badly handled, will badly dent the UK economy and tax take.

Yet the party is committed to small government and lower taxes.
It should also be noted that no govt of any stripe anywhere anytime hasa ever survived without the support of the capital city. London is almost solid anti-brexit.

Something will have to give.

For the moment Johnson has the luxury of no meaningful opposition in the House except from the SNP who will look after themselves. He should take advantage before the void vills which it will. Layla Moran, who will soon be running the LibDems, is a very sharp cookie. If Labour choose Keith Starmer rather than the Corbynista Long-Bailey as new leader then that will be another serious opposition. England and Wales have local govt elections in May.

Seriously you are saying the rest of the country has to bow to the people of Londons wishes.....

Throwing toys out of the pram springs to mind :-D

I see that some in the UK, presumably Labour supporters, are questioning the election results.

There's a lot to be said for dictatorships :-S

You are right there Allan

There are huge expectations from the areas that have been neglected for too long that have now overwhelmingly voted Tory for the first time

I am not sure why people think the same party that has ignored them for so long is going to suddenly change the habit? Maybe Boris will suprise me ( Gobsmack me lol) but why has the same old Boris, clearly a central figure in the Conservative party for a long time ( ie not a 'new broom' as such) suddenly become the great white hope for the people and those institutions his party has let slide? The NHS, the police. the infrastructure of railways and roads, education, etc etc, the towns and cities where industry has died, and not been replaced for generations?

He IS the establishment that everyone was so keen to protest against a few years ago, what exactly has changed?

I still don't "get it" and I don't think I am a particularly stupid person ( though this post is off the cuff and I daresay i could write it better if I had the inclination).

Simple and accurate answers on a postcard please. I don't need to know why the other parties or their leader would be 'worse', I just need to know why this one is better now than it was last year or the year before or the year before that ..... etc

As yet no one I know, whether ardent remainer or vehement leaver, of any political persuasion ( and I know some of each) has managed to give an answer without "waffle".

It's just possible, Rose, that as in Oz people vote for the lesser of two evils.

I can't speak for the UK political parties as I've been away far too long, but in OZ the major parties have all lost touch with their original population bases.

The PM himself calls it the 'Canberra Bubble' whilst also indulging in such actions, ie the pollies spend so much time in Canberra that that is where their whole world is centred.

Also, we now have 'career' politicians who have very little 'life' experience and are either lawyers, union officials, or, in many cases now, political advisers.

Abandon hope all ye who enter here :-D

Allan, I have nothing more sensible to say tonight than my mother's mantra ;-)

"Que Sera Sera" :-)

The recent GE and ongoing ructions in both of the major 2 UK parties was not about "winning" the election in a traditional way i.e. by having attractive (realistic) policies and believable leaders. Both Labour and Tory failed on that by a wide margin.

The issue is that of achieving power and eliminating opposition.

The only Labour GE wins since 1951 have been under Wilson and Blair - both centrists both reviled by the Corbynistas. If Labour really wanted a shot at a win in the next turn of the wheel they would go with the likes of Benn, Thornberry or Starmer. Instead Long-Bailey is leading the pack. On top of her bed time reading is Lenin's "Socialism in Once Country".

On the Tory side all of the trad "one netion" MPs have been expelled. The signed up membership is a joke, a third being ex UKIP. Funding comes mostly from the likes of Aaron Banks and Russian oligarchs. Under Cummings they have borrowed Goebbel's stratagem of big lies told often.
https://inews.co.uk/culture/television/rise-of-the-nazis-bbc2-documentary-when-time-tonight-494596

Just how this is all going to pan out is anybody's guess. However those hoping for a quiet life as brexit "gets done" are in for an unpleasant shock. The EU is already hardening its negotiating position while Johnson won't get much joy out of the post Trump US Democrat presidency.

If NI and Scotland break away ( odds > 50% ) then dating from 1918 the UK will have lost a greater share of its national territory then any other country. Under the Cons & "Unionist" party to boot.
The United Kingdom of England and Principality of Wales does not have the same resonance and on top would grate on PC supporters. Any other ideas that will fit on a post card? Greater Maine ?

"The issue is that of achieving power and eliminating opposition."


Surely that's the ultimate goal every election but rarely happens!!

Labour are blaming everybody and everything
for them losing the Election

Suck it up Buttercup
Its Labours fault for putting such an idiot up as their candidate :-P :-P

My sentiments exactly Joy. well said :-D :-D

I know many lifelong Labour supporters who just couldn't vote for a party with that leader end of. They voted for the lesser of two evils.