General Chat

Hi all,
Does anyone have any knowledge on the subject of seals? I have a copy of an ancestors will dated 1767, the seal used bears a resemblance to one used by a branch of the Earls Of Derby (Stanley's)-i.e. an eagle, wings outspread, on the top of a tree & 3 stags heads to the side. Unfortunately, the bottom half of the seal imprint is smudged & unreadable so I don't know if there is a motto across the bottom. My Stanley's-back to the end of the 1500s were living in Derby- I have read of some Derby Stanley's in the1500s claiming to be descended from one of the Earls.
I have no idea whether my family ''borrowed'' the design or if they were entitled to use it.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Maureen

Any connection to Liverpool, Maureen?

Hi JoyLouise,

From the end of the 1500s at least, they were in Derby.A long line of Thomas Stanley's from the end of the 1500s to my 7 x gt grandfather Joseph born 1669.


Maureen

Is it the family seal or the solicitors who wrote the will to show where it officially ended?

No, it was the family seal as far as I know.-used against his wife's & son Robert's names who were witnesses to the will. The solicitor was Scroop Beardmore.
I can't be sure, but I think it is the same seal as used by his father Joseph in 1735. I can only make out a little of the imprint on that will.
All very frustrating!

Maureen

Maureen, the reason I asked whether there was a Liverpool connection is that I recognised the Stanley name/Earl of Derby because they are definitely connected to Liverpool.

Years ago, I heard that there was a dispute about inheritance there but it was settled in favour of the residing family.

Just wondering .....

Are you sure it's an eagle and not a Liver Bird?

The stags could indicate the hunting grounds of the Earls of Derby. These were in and around Liverpool area.

There is a lot of reading online about the Stanley family.

I have taken a quick look and one coat of arms is as follows:

Argent on a bend azure 3 stags' heads cabossed.

The words 'Sans Changer'' appear on another with the three stags' heads.

When the family branched out the 'legs of Man' appeared (Isle of Man) on shield and glass.mmthis was a quartered shield.

There is one with an inscription:

Mon Seinour Stanley.

There are more.

One site (hslc.org.uk) Some Stanley glass from Worden Hall, Lancashire mentions that the Eagle and Child (Lathom Crest) was permanently retained by the Earls. It also mentions that one Stznley coat may have owed its three stags' heads to a fortunate marriage with an heiress, Joan, daughter of Philip de Bamville in the late-13th century ... inherited land near Leek, Staffs.

You will need to go back step-by-step, as you will know, to be certain you have the right line so good hunting.

Hi JoyLouise,

Thanks for your help-I have a book about the Stanley family of Lancs.- so I know of the Lathom connection.
I was curious why my Stanley's were using a seal similar to that branch of the Stanley's. I read somewhere that each son had to alter the seal slightly to distinguish it from the previous generation. The bird is very large (an eagle I've assumed) with large wings spread as if just landing on what looks like an oblong box-(the child's cradle?) on top of a tree.
I guess I need to get professional advice- the records get very sketchy in the 1500s.
It's possible that my lot 'borrowed' the design! Until I find out if that's illegal I won't know!

Thanks again

Maureen

A good place to start if you intend to research the coat of arms further...

https://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk

As it happens I have a branch who, back in the 16th century, were granted arms. In fact two grants were made, differing slightly, for two individuals of the same family line.

Chris

Arms and crests are granted to individuals, not families.Just because somebody has a surname matching a coat of arms it does not mean that they have any connection with a given arms and even if they do may not themselves be "armorial". No two people can bear the same arms at the same time. Very few women were able to "bear arms".

Typically "armorial families" such as the Percy's, Howards, Stanleys , Cavendish and Drax "difference" granted arms with individual crests. Many of these crests exist in physical forms from silver plate to seals, signets rings and bottle closers.

The seals were usually used for important correspondence and legal documents such as marriage allegations , wills and fines.

Using such seals for fun is ok but under UK Law cannot be used for legal purposes unless of course you have grant from the College of Heralds.

https://www.myfamilysilver.com/crestfinder-search/stanley-family-crest

Many thanks Chris & Rollo, I will follow up on the info you have provided.

Chris, we have been in touch before about my Sussex family-you have a connection with Southwell as I recall. My sister lived there & I knew the mill. I am a Nottinghamian.


Thank you again

Maureen

Maureen, Rollo's piece confirms the fact I wrote about previously - Stanley/Earl of Derby members having various crests/coats of arms. (One had Three Stags head cabossed, another member had Legs of Man, and the Lathoms stuck with Eagle and Child.)

I have a copy of a 1696 (family) Land Document (stored at County Hall and brought out when cousins and I wanted to see it), parchment with four seals across the bottom and I think the seals are those used by the signatories at the time so it is not an uncommon occurrence; however they are not identifiable as in use by any earls, lords etc.

It would be a wonderful step (or steps) further back for you if you could detect any slight difference in the seal used by your ancestor and a seal from a generation further back and so forth down the generational line for if it has not been simply copied by your ancestor, it could mean that history unfolds easily for you as there is plenty of knowledge about the Stanley/Earls of Derby online.

The solicitor's name mentioned by you, Scroop Beardmore, intrigued me and made me wonder slightly if the seal was theirs or your family's, the reason being is that I am descended from the le Scrope family (pronounced Scroop) but so far down the pecking order - and female to boot - that we have no family seal. From recollection, I believe Rollo has mentioned previously that he has some sort of le Scrope background too so he may be able to provide you with more information regarding use of various seals of the Stanleys and, no doubt, he will have researched the le Scropes more thoroughly than I have. Are you reading this Rollo?

I have copies of various other land documents and wills, the originals being stored at either County Hall or our local university library but so far nothing else has seals. I have yet to get copies of everything held by them but I am afraid I am running out of curiosity as well as steam.

Good luck - and I hope Rollo can help you further.