General Chat

Hi Kucinta, I think that looks very likely .
:-)

I think this might be another child of Charles Mackleworth and Alice Harmes., and that the mother's maiden name had probably been mistranscribed from the written entry in the original register.

I can't find any other Mackleworth-Haines children, nor a Mackleworth-Haines marriage to account for her. She fits between the last two known children of Charles and Alice, and, as she appears to have died as an infant, may have been lost to family recollection.

Births Jun 1924 Mackleworth Marguerite F Haines Bethnal G. 1c 188

Deaths Dec 1925 Mackleworth Margaret F 1 Lambeth 1d 323

The last two known children:

Births Sep 1921 Mackleworth Frederick W Harmes Bethnal G. 1c 203

Births Dec 1925 Mackleworth Ivy L Harmes Bethnal G. 1c 170

If you're out there, Rose, or anyone else, I'd love some feedback as to if anyone else thinks this is likely.

However Thomas and Mary also had a daughter named,Mary, baptism below. Could it be that Stephen was her child born out of wedlock, and Stephen used his grandfather's name in lieu of a father to save face on his second marriage cert?


Name: Mary Pointer
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 03 Jan 1802
Christening Place: EAST WELLOW,HAMPSHIRE,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Thomas Pointer
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Mary
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: P01508-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 1041257
Reference ID:

If this is them in 1841, and allowing for the fact that age of over 15s was rounded down to nearest 5 years in 1841 census, Mary could have been in her early - mid 40s when Stephen was born.

Census 1841;
Name: Thomas Pointer
Age: 68
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1773
Gender: Male
Where born: Hampshire, England
Civil Parish: East Wellow
Hundred: Thorngate (Lower Half)
County/Island: Hampshire
Country: England
Street Address:


Registration District: Romsey
Sub-registration District: Michelmersh

Piece: 401
Book: 20
Folio: 4
Page Number: 3

Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Pointer 68
Mary Pointer 67

Back to Stephen Pointer.

On his marriageto Ann Tucker as a widower, previously posted, he said he had a father named Thomas.

The 1816 Baptism for Stephen Pointer on famllysearch , previously posted only mentioned a mother named Mary.

Pallot's Marriage Index for England: 1780 - 1837

has the following marriage of a Thomas Pointer to a Mary at Wellow:

Name: Thomas Poynter
[Thomas Pointer]
Spouse: Mary Moore
Marriage Date: 1793
Parish: Wellow

Could they be Stephen's parents? It could be biologically possible, depending on how old Mary was when she married.

It would probably be for the sake of decency in Wiltshire, as the family were in the Salisbury area in 1861 & 1871.

Though as I've shown, it wasn't just Alice and enceinte Eliza that had moved to the Surrey area, their full blood sibs Samuel and Louisa as well as Edith were also either living or 'visiting' the area along with possible sib George, born Salisbury c1872, in the census of 1881.

Thank you RR. Now a photo would be something wouldn't it? My cousin in Oz has sent me a pic of my father and a pic of his brother. I look like both of them. It's spooky.

Kucinta - I agree with your last paragraph. I think the theory that Eliza Jane was shipped off to Kingston for the sake of decency in Hampshire holds water.

if you remember, the 1893 baptism for Eliza Jane's son, previously posted, had his name as Henry John Harmes

His birth ref, as a Pointer, also previously posted, had an initial 'H' that I reckon stood for Harmes

Name Henry John H Pointer
Year of Registration 1886
Quarter of Registration Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration District Kingston
Registration County Surrey
Mother's maiden name
Volume Number 2A
Volume Page 329

This third name/initial is missing from Alice's birth ref. There is also a bit of a gap between the bith of Alice and the birth of Henry John.

I'm pretty confident Harry is Henry John's father, but think it much less likely that he's Alice's biological father, though he seems to have embraced the paternal role.

EDIT: I also wonder whether that baptism, when Henry John was about 6 or 7, was an attempt to make him an 'official' Harmes.

In which case, is the fact we can't currently find a baptism for Alice as a Harmes (or even as a Poynter/Pointer) significant?

Hi Mick, I have a similar situation with one of my gt's, born before the marriage of 'parents' I can not be sure one way or the other whether his father IS his father or if father is 'unknown'.

I'm lucky in that I've got a photo of both together when old, but I have looked at them for ages and still not sure whether there is enough of a resemblance to say they are blood relatives.

I'm not very good at this am I? I looked under Harmes. gawd...

She is born in Q3 apparently, right where I thought, so I got something right.

I wonder, having the name Pointer, if this means Eliza Jane hadn't yet met Henry Sr? If they had been having a thing, surely they would have given Alice the name Harmes?

Edit: but then mebbe not cos he was married to Ms Heather.

Trying to put the human side on to all these records. :-)

Births Sep 1881
POINTER Alice Lisette Kingston 2a 317
Pointer Alice Lisette Kington 6a 317


(previously posted by Rose)

Still can't find Stephen, he's not with either of the other children from census 1871, one of whom is happily mistranscribed. A George Pointer born 1872 has also surfaced...

Note at least two more of Stephen's children have moved to the Surrey/London area

census 1881:

Address: 1, Thomas St, Horsleydown County: London, Surrey

SHEARMAN, Frank Head Single M 34 1847 Cook (Nd) Paddington, Middlesex
POINTET, Samuel Boarder Single M 20 1861 Railway Porter
Salisbury, Wiltshire<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

and

Address: Highland Road, Leatherhead County: Surrey

HAISNER, James Head Married M 46 1835 Bricklayer Deptford, Kent
POINTER, Louisa Visitor Single F 16 1865 Dom Serv Salisbury, Wiltshire<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
POINTER, George Visitor Single M 9 1872 Scholar Salisbury, Wiltshire??????

Just having a peruse in the free births for Alice and found a Daisy Louise born in Kingston in Q3 1881 2a 320. That's where I would have put Alice being born. Can't find Alice though.

Edit: or maybe in Q4 before she showed too much in April. Of course, we don't when she got there.

Yes,

I too wondered if they'd come to dump Eliza and her 'shame' on sister Alice (and then named the baby after her)

I still haven't found Stephen and the rest of the family.

Pointlo is meant to be Pointer. Given the Alice/Anna fiasco i think the enumerator was on the careless side when writing up the 'good' copy in the census books.

I'l pm you the image. EDIT: Just realised you must already have it as you say you downloaded it.

To be fair, Grandad Charles may not have been too sure when he was born, especially as he seems to have mislaid his parents when he was still just a lad.

I had to download it to have a look. What a clever find. You amaze me. You wouldn't let this go would you? Brilliant stuff. How on earth did you find it? And what on earth is Pointlo ? Is that supposed to be Pointer?

I dug out her birth details -

Name Eliza Jane Pointer
Year of Registration 1858
Quarter of Registration Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District South Stoneham
Registration County Hampshire
Mother's maiden name
Volume Number 2C
Volume Page 56

The census is taken in April and that would make her 23 not 22 as she stated. They were careless with the dob in those days. Bit like Grandad Charles.

1st cousin in Oz apparently has Alice Lizzette's birth certificate, born in 1881. She says it shows 'Father unknown'. I am interested to see what her date of birth is. I am wondering if Eliza Jane came to stay with her sister to have the baby, i.e. away from Hampshire. They did that in those days (still do ;-)

FINALLY found Eliza Jane in i881.

She was visiting with her married sister Alice, but fmp transcribed them separately:

Census 1881:

Address: 15, Canbury Fields, Fredk Place, Kingston County: Surrey

POINTLO, Alice Visitor Head Married F 49 1832 Laundress Poole, Dorset
POINTLO, Eliza Visitor Single F 22 1859 Laundry Maid Shirley, Hampshire<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
POINTLO, Edith Visitor Single F 12 1869 Scholar
Salisbury, Wiltshire

NB 'Alice' aged 49 has her forename dittoed from that of her daughter Alice Dendy above her on the census page. I believe the census enumerator probably misread his own notes when writing up the census book, and mistook 'Anna' for another 'Alice'.

Address: 15, Canbury Fields, Fredk Place, Kingston County: Surrey

DENDY, John Head Married M 25 1856 Gen Labourer Kingston, Surrey
DENDY, Alice Wife Married F 24 1857 Shirley, Hampshire<<<<<<


Marriages Dec 1877
DENDY John Kingston 2a 437<<<<<<<<<<<<
Poynter Alice Kingston 2a 437 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Stevens Ellen Kingston 2a 437
White John Kingston 2a 437

Now you just need to find an old street map and see how close Harry's address was to Eliza's...

Kucinta

I cannot thank you enough for all this. You have certainly covered all the bases with Eliza Jane and Alice Lizzette. In summary -

There was a rumour my Oz cousin got from her mother that our grandmother Alice Lizzette was illegitimate. Your research and RR suggest this to be true. We do not know who the father is although Alice took the name Harmes when her mother, Eliza Jane Pointer, married a long time companion Henry Chapman Harmes. Her half-brother Henry John Pointer b1886 also took the name Harmes from that marriage in 1891.Henry Sr may be the father of both but we simply don't know.

It appears that Henry Chapman Harmes was married before to an Elizabeth Heather and this was why he was a long time companion of 20 years or more to Eliza Jane. No death or divorce has been found for this Elizabeth and he is back living with his mother in the 1881 census and stating he is married. This could suggest that the marriage was on the rocks but no divorce has been found. And neither has Elizabeth.

Further back, Eliza Jane was born in about 1859 to Stephen Pointer and Ann Pointer (nee Tucker) in Shirley, Hants. In the 1861 census, the transcribed place 'Wotter' turns out to be Wellow. Kucinta also found that Eliza's father was convicted of larceny in 1851 and served one month.

Finally, Henry J Harmes Jr, Alice's half-brother died in about 1960 at the age of 73. Alice Lizzette, the reason for this particular part of the search died in 1971, aged 90, and is buried in Manor Park cemetery, East London.

Kucinta and RR thank you both very much for you tireless efforts to help me. You did practically all of it - I merely typed it in.

mick

Re the jailbird evidence. I am happy to report that the family business carried on well into the 20th Century....

Death of Henry John's wife?

Name: Elizabeth Harmes
Birth Date: abt 1886
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1957
Age at Death: 71
Registration District: Surrey Northern
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 5g
Page: 294

Probate:

Name: Elizabeth Harmes
Birth Date: abt 1886
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1957
Age at Death: 71
Registration District: Surrey Northern
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume: 5g
Page: 294

Of 12 Acre Road K upon T. (wife of Henry John Harmes). Administration to the said Henry John Harmes retired painter and decorator. Effects £243 13s 6d.

Marriage:

Name: Lily E J Harmes
Spouse Surname: Linford
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1935
Registration District: Surrey Mid Eastern
Inferred County: Surrey
Volume Number: 2a
Page Number: 771
Spouse: Linford James A Harmes Surrey Mid.E 2a 771

Two Linford children, mmn Harmes born in the 1930s. Won't put here for privacy reasons as may well be still living.