General Chat

That's an interesting article Paula, thank you. I have also read about Denis Thatcher so am learning a lot this week!! Also enjoying the different viewpoints, especially those from life experience.

Well I remember the era of Margaret Thatcher perfectly well, not forgetting the prelude of nearly 40 years of inept peacetime government by Churchill, Eden, Home, Callaghan and above all Edward Heath. McMillan's and the first Wilson administration were short periods of light in an otherwise unremitting disaster.

I made loadsa money as a Thatcher yuppie so I have no personal axe to grind.

As a person Thatcher was quite charming but definitely not a promoter of women's right's still less women in politics. Quite why political women look to her rather than say Barbara Castle is beyond me.

As a leader of a country Thatcher was an out and out flop; she led " our people" and did not give a fig for anybody else or what got broken on her wheel. That is why she was chucked out by her own side. As a political operator she was of course a winner which is why DC is trying to turn her funeral into a political carny circus.

It is more than arguable that the essential reforms could have been better carried out with consent as in Germany. They weren't.

The decline in some parts of British industry, especially steel, motor manufacture, textiles, shoes, chemicals and coal (not forgetting corner shops) were none of her fault and the outcomes would have been the same whatever.

Quite possibly under sunny Jim subsidies putting off the inevitable could have caused these old smokestack industries to bring down the whole country. Car making has recovered under new ownership and hi tech steel and the rag trade are also recovering recession or not.

None of the incipient industrial recovery is down to Thatcher either - except for the removal of the Luddite boot of the the unions from the neck of industry. That boot is still firmly on the neck of the railways, underground and the NHS. Dave prefers not to pick a fight but instead has chosen to have a go at DLA claimants and so on. Beyond words.

I have no strong objection to a funeral in St Paul's though as she was very much a leader of a faction rather than the country as a whole I do not think it is appropriate. A quasi state funeral to be blunt stinks. The last time something like this happened was the funeral of Disraeli.

It is surprising to me that so many people researching their family trees take so little note of the times and places of the sad occasions. If they did they would be better able to understand Thatcher and the currents that first brought her to power and then destroyed her.

At the end of the day she was a minor player in C20 political history. That belongs to Lenin, Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Churchill, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Mao and Ronald Reagan. The only post ww2 European politician who might claim to have made a serious impression on world history is Helmut Kohl.

Thatcher's life was that of broken promises and broken people, something to remember and learn from but not really a reason for national celebration.

That is spot on Liz and a great quote! I am in full agreement. How can you have beautiful golden eggs to eat if you don't look after the goose that lays them! She brought in schemes that helped small businesses which also helped my family.

Yes, of course each goverment inherits what the previous one implemented, and the labour government that followed on didn't repeal any of the laws to take some of the power away from the unions Thatcher's government had passed did they despite the hoo ha they made about it at the time?

What I don't get is how generation after generation can keep blaming their situation on what happened in the 80s. Don't they know what personal responsibility is? When the shoe trade collapsed where my father worked when I was a little girl, he didn't draw benefit and wait for a job to turn up, he moved us to another county, and away from the rest of his family to where he could get work, even though it was different work. He and my mother were very pro Thatcher, despite there being over 100 years of miners in my mother's family and 3 generations in my father's family having spent periods as miners. From experience of their families, they were totally against the strikes and said the extra pay they wanted would just be spent in the pub. That sounds an awful thing to say, but I can remember when I stayed with my gran, my grandad and uncle who hadn't left home at the time, were in the pub every night...........yet my mum and dad, who saved hard to buy their own home couldn't afford to do that.

Where was the sense in keep propping up the mines with taxpayer funded subsidies. Some of the closed mines in this area were turned into business parks, so some jobs were replaced, with a lot less risk of pneumoconiosis too. I would agree that more regeneration was needed to help in some areas, but a lot of large government offices were moved to areas like Cardiff, Newcastle and Liverpool to provide thousands of jobs.

My own view is that some of the problem was resentful reluctance to embrace any change, while something or someone could be blamed for what happened, that has provided poor role models for these later generation youngsters in some of these areas. Brought up hearing such negativity and apathy doesn't help at all. Some of the men in those earlier generations wouldn't have wanted their sons getting a poncy office job would they!!

Paula, that is really interesting and thank you for typing it all!!

Thank you Lilybids. I was a 'proper'(!) grownup in 1979 living near Oxford with a young family, and it was a nightmare, every week grocery's cost more than the week before, nothing but one strike after another, business's going to the wall because of the almost constant unrest (ours among them) - I did then, and do now feel very sorry for the workforce a lot of whom didn't want to strike, but of course, had to!!!, it was just terrible to witness how people were whipped up week in week out - lions led by well heeled donkeys! and the poor Lion's were the loser's. You just couldn't go on like that, it had to stop, and someone had to do it., and yes it was painful - VERY.

I thought that I would share this with you.

Alfred Roberts ( Father of Margaret Thatcher nee Roberts)

Early life

Alfred Roberts was born in Ringstead and grew up in Northamptonshire. He was the fifth of seven children. His father was Benjamin Ebenezer Roberts (1857–1925), from a Ringstead family, and his mother was Ellen Smith (1857–1935), whose own mother was born at Kenmare in Ireland.

Roberts' bad eyesight meant he could not enter the family trade of shoemaking. He left school at thirteen in order to help support his family and is listed in the 1911 census as living as a boarder Oundle, Northamptonshire, and working as a grocer's assistant. He later moved to Grantham, Lincolnshire, where he gained a job as an apprentice in a greengrocers; he had originally wanted to become a teacher. When the First World War broke out in 1914, Roberts, "a deeply patriotic man", applied to enlist in the army six times but was rejected because of his poor eyesight.

Four years after moving to Grantham, Roberts met Beatrice Ethel Stephenson (1888–1960) through the local Methodist church, which he attended every Sunday. They married in Grantham on 28 May 1917 and had two daughters, both born in Grantham: Muriel (1921 – December 2004)[3] and Margaret (1925–2013).[4] In 1919, they bought the grocery shop; and, in 1923, Roberts opened a second shop.

Roberts was an "old-fashioned liberal" who believed strongly in individual responsibility and sound finance. He had read and admired John Stuart Mill's On Liberty. He came from a family that traditionally voted Liberal but he believed that the Liberal Party had embraced collectivism and that the Conservatives stood for the old liberalism. His daughter Muriel recalled that Roberts "was always a Liberal at heart". In the 1935 general election, Roberts helped the local Conservative candidate Victor Warrender to win the seat.

In 1927 Roberts was elected to the Grantham town council as an independent. He was also a part-time Justice of the Peace, president of the Chamber of Trade, President of Rotary, a director of the Grantham Building Society, a director of the Trustee Savings Bank, chairman of the local National Savings Movement, a governor of the local boys and girls grammar schools and chairman of the Workers' Educational Association. During the Second World War he was Chief Welfare Officer, directing civil defence. He soon became Chairman of the Finance and Rating Committee, and in 1943 he was elected by the council as an Alderman and then served as the Mayor of Grantham from November 1945 to 1946, in which he presided over the town's victory celebrations. In his inaugural speech Roberts called for a large programme of expenditure to rebuild the roads, public transport, health and social services for children and to "build houses by the thousand "

On 21 May 1952, Roberts was voted out as Alderman by the first Labour majority on the council and after the vote was taken he proclaimed: "It is now almost nine years since I took up these robes in honour, and now I trust in honour they are laid down." When Mrs Thatcher recalled this event over thirty years later during an interview with Miriam Stoppard, she said it was "very emotional" and wept on television.

Alfred Roberts retired and sold his business in 1958 but continued to preach and remained active in the Rotary Club. Beatrice died in 1960, Roberts married again to Cecily Miriam Hubbard in 1965. He died in 1970, shortly before the election, and nine years before his daughter became prime minister.


Source Wikipedia

OFITG, As usual your posts hit a cord with most, I remember the days when coal mining was fraught with danger and in those days miners where very hard working proud men my own father was buried during a cave in, he was one of the lucky ones who survived but had two years off work due to braking his back in several places, but people need to realise this was before the industry was mechanised in the late 60's

Just to put perspective on things;...More men are injured and die each year today driving lorries for a living than ever died because of coal mining

although most of the old dangers where removed due to Mechanisation the new machinery had it's own dangers for the operators, but only when they ignored their training and or got careless, This Mechanisation in my opinion turned the once proud hard working miners into people who saw it as an easy life and they became more lazy and militant as a result after all they had the backing of the largest union in the country who used them as pawns in their game of playing politics with successive governments, As LilyL said and I remember it well "Beer and Sandwiches at No 10"

John, I'm sure your posts are true to what your opinions are however IMHO you haven't got a clue about the coal mining industry

Roy

Edit OFITG, "government creating over 3 million unemployed? Its not governments job to employ people, It's governments job to create the climate for people/companies to create Jobs, The 3 million unemployed was a consequence of sorting out the problems created by the successive governments not getting to grips with the unions

LilyL I go along with that

Quote by Abraham Lincoln.

You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong,
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift,
You cannot help the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.

Mrs Thatcher carried this quote with her wherever she went and obviously adhered to it.
As I've said before, I think some people have forgotten or were not old enough to remember how run down and despairing this country had become. Held to ransome by the Trade Unions which one of you remembers Beer and Sandwiches at No 10? with the poor old PM of the day making one concession after another to people who could only be described as bully-boys. Bar### Ca## tried hard as well - remember 'In Place of Strife'?! no luck there!!! when it gets to the stage that the dead couldn't be buried then clearly something or someone HAD to do something. and I for one, am eternally grateful to Mrs T, warts and all for frankly getting this country out of the Sh##. As someone said she had more b##s than ALL the other politicians put together, hence she was so hated, that and being a woman!! Incidentally, just thought I'd mention it, Union Leaders looked pretty well heeled to me and still do, good salarys smart suits chaffeur driven cars! family involved in their occupations? nice work if you can get it! The only losers were the workers, certainly not their leaders - criticise Mrs T? Pot calling the Kettle black I'd say!!

Lyndi - spot on - I tried to make that point earlier but it was conveniently ignored.

Sandie - I agree wholeheartedly

Spot on LilyL @ 13 Apr 2013 14:57.

As Eroll said this is meant to be pleasant thread.

Difficult for some no doubt , but if you don't like it..as they say don't post ...

Re a state funeral or ceremonial funeral and the Queen attending.

As leader during the Falklands War ( ie a hostile invasion of British soil) and the subsequent 'winning' of that war, then I think, given the precedent set by Churchill, it is fair that a state funeral was considered. I assume that would have been the case whoever had been PM during at the time? ( Edit perhaps not, I did not know that there had been state funerals for a few PMs before that).

"Lady Thatcher was instrumental in vetoing the idea of a state funeral because she feared it would provoke a divisive debate in parliament, which would have to approve the funding, according to Whitehall sources."

Mrs Thatcher's title was a lifetime one, so will not be passed down. Her husband had a hereditary title which was then passed down to son Mark .

Hereditary means that her son Mark is Second Baron Thatcher and grandson Michael will become Third Baron Thatcher.

That was all stopped in Wilson's day., i think. He gave all sorts of honours to his friends, but none of it was hereditary. He once proudly told the 14th Earl of Home that he was the 14th Mr Wilson. In Mrs T's day, only members of the Royal Family were granted honours that could be passed down. Mrs T was a commoner - so she was the great exception.

What does heritary mean?

Two things that grate a bit with me are her becoming a Baroness and the expense of her funeral.

It has been said that the Queen decided she should have an heritary title and that David Cameron felt she should have a Cermonial Funeral.

I have a fairly clear recollection that Mrs T demanded an honour at that sort of level and that she wanted a State Funeral. It was her that pushed for these honours, nobody else. If my memory is wrong, I am sorry.

On Question Time, they were saying she would have hated all the expenditure and pomp and circumstance of this funeral. And I am sure it is a strain for her two children. Did she or did she not believe she was entitled to an heritary title and a State Funeral like King George VI and Sir Winston Churchill? Anybody know?

Robert, I agree that Labour also closed coal mines, steels works, and ship yards prior to Margret Thatcher coming to power. However I do not agree that it was the Labour government that has caused the debts our grand children will have to pay off, and I do not recall any post war government creating over 3 million unemployed.

The deregulation of the financial markets, sometimes called the big bang, came about following discussions between the Thatcher administration and the Reagan administration and was announced in October 1986, this is well documented, and was legislated for in the Financial Services Act 1986.

Just as Margaret Thatcher adopted many of Wilson's and Callaghan's policies, Tony Blair adopted many of Margaret Thatcher's policies, so governments of all parties contributed to the crisis.

Merlin. Coal suppliers delivered coal in huge sacks. In shops we had large paper bags with 28lbs and 56 lbs in them. Bit like cat litter bags in supermarkets today. Small one was c 10kilos, large one about 20 kilos.

It was not cheap - it was a convenience for customers who were expecting a coal delivery and were cold. I was very proud I could lift a 56lb bag (20 plus kilos) in each hand and walk about 30 yards with them to the shop counter.

No idea where it was mined - might have been China or Poland, but most likely Ryecroft or Great Wyrley.

Bit off thread, but aren't you always. You carry on praising the late lady if you think that is what we all should be doing.

shame indeed and not in keeping with the general attitude of this thread

John, I'm amazed from your posts that you are, or believe yourself to be, a man of God. Perhaps it's just me, but you come over as pompous, self opinionated, with the addition of a fair sized chip on your shoulder and frankly not a very pleasant person. If helping in your father's business prior to going up to Oxford is something to be mocked at, then I do truly feel sorry for you, presumably Miss Roberts should either have sat at home twiddling her thumbs, or? no supermarkets in the 940's, women didn't go down the mines, so there weren't those many options! As for who she married, that actually is none of your business to even comment on let alone make mockery of - shame on you!