General Chat

Have always been impressed by Lady T's education. In my view, it was second to none.

First she got a chemistry degree - something I couldn't even pass at O level.

Then she worked for J Lyons in Hammersmith as a research chemist - and her work about 1950 in developing emulsifiers for ice cream revolutionised that industry.

She then trained in law and became a Barrister at Law in 1953

And she was a popular MP and an excellent Minister in Heath's cabinet.

So anyone who thinks I am knee-jerking in my opposition to her record is quite wrong. I have always admired greatly what she achieved - both in the academic world and the grocery world. :-)

she was turned down because she lacked enough qualifications,,,,,she returned to school for extra studies and a tutor in Latin which she lacked for Oxford,.....after a candidate dropped out she was offered a place,she was excepted then as she'd gained enough to qualify.,,,no one is denying she studied with determination ,,,,,she was a passionnate political animal at Oxford and a fighter at rallies and the like,

Latin wasnt taught at the Grammer.

John she worked as part of a whole team not a lone chemist.

She never did work as a Barrister in a court,which is a sham as she could have been at the top of that profession with her drive and commitment.

John you don't half talk nadgers!

Just reading about her and have to say I agree with her statement - made in1987. I didn't realise we were so far down the road of abdication of personal responsibility that long ago!!

''I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand "I have a problem, it is the Government's job to cope with it!" or "I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!" "I am homeless, the Government must house me!" and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations.''

May I just remind in case anyone forgot that this thread is about Margaret Thatcher and not john

Lyndi .......

............. yes, she did not win a scholarship at first, but then someone who had won one withdrew, and Mrs Thatcher got it.

That means she was the next in line on the list, and had probably lost out by one or two marks.


She may well have been offered a place in the University, but without the scholarship (see below) ......... I can find nothing about that.

That's how those things work.


For information, "applying for a scholarship" at any of the colleges in Oxford or Cambridge, or for other universities like Durham, at that time, and up until the late 1950s involved ................

...... writing an entrance exam or exams at the university early in the year .......... before you had actually finished the final year courses at school. Questions could be asked that you knew nothing about.

...... a personal interview with the Head of the College you wished to enter

...... possibly, but not always, an interview with the Head (or representative) of the Faculty/Department which you intended to enter.

....... You stayed in the College while having the interview etc, and the College servants (ie, the Scouts at Oxford or Cambridge) could also report on your "suitability" for acceptance, ie, how well brought up you were.


Being offered a place depended on achieving high enough marks on the entrance exam, AND on being acceptable personally to the Head of the College.

Being offered a Scholarship depended on achieving the highest marks in the exam, and STILL being acceptable to the Head of the College.


Being in the top percentile at your school, or in your County, counted for nothing when you tried to do that.

I tried for Durham in 1959, which is how I know how that worked, and OH tried for Oxbridge in 1957, which is how I know how that worked. Both basically the same!


I have no idea what the application system is now!

What do you class as humble then Sylvia ?

Because that was the question and reason in my post.

Are you just comparing it with other Tory leaders ?
Because I am comparing her background with 'Joe Bloggs' 'John Doe' who ever....end of.

I have no question about her academic / political achievements .

BTW ....................

when I applied for Durham ................. I did not achieve high enough marks on the exam because there was stuff on there I knew nothing about.

But I had already basically failed the interview with the College because I demonstrated a lack of knowledge about the music of Bach, Beethoven, etc

I was a science student!!!

The Thatchers along with many buisness people of that time in small places,,,,,,,a market town with industry ,mainly working class people were seen as ,well off,,,,,,not toffs but certainly not a mouth to mouth waiting for payday existence,no bread and scrape for them,,no hand me downs,no cardboard in your shoes,,,clothes bought from the best local shop.......that to hand to mouth working class is Rich and certainly not humble living.

Sandie


I don't know how it was originally used in the 1970s .................. I "think" it was probably in terms of the other big wigs in the Tory party, because that is the way it would have been used in the 50s and 60s.

Since then, things have changed, and the interpretation has changed.


But certainly many many of even the MPs who ran for the Tories in the 1950s and 1960s were NOT of the "humble" class.

I helped with the Tory campaign in my home town in the 1964 election ................ and the candidate was Anthony Nutting, who had been in the Cabinet of both Churchill and Eden, and had resigned around the time of the Suez Canal problems in 1956.

He was most certainly "upper class" .................... and campaigning in a working class area!

But that was what was the norm, in those days.


EDIT ............... he lost!



so yes, Mrs T would have been considered of "humble beginnings" then

I wasn't indicating in my post that I was middle class because my grandparents owned properties.

I don't consider myself as such I've worked all my life as has hubby.
We are working class.

I've have had the sad task to have to sell nan's house and dads after their deaths .
I am the youngest of all the cousins and I wish I'd been older when Gramps died cos the 'family 'let the property sell at a silly price.

Hubby wasn't into renovation at the time when my uncle died leaving nan's house vacant in mid 80's, I was only 5 when Gramps died , but house wasn't sold for probably 5 yrs after
........reason for saying this......

Hubby renovated parents house doubling the selling price .
Shame dad wouldn't let him do it when he was alive.! :-(

Sandie


I could perhaps understand your Dad, at least a suggestion re it


My son-i-l stood in the middle of my kitchen on a visit here a year or so after he had married my daughter, looked around, and said ...........

"I could do a wonderful job of renovating this kitchen"

My immediate response was prickly ......... it put my back up, and my first thought was "no way are you going to change MY kitchen to YOUR likes"


Silly, I know .......... but that was my first response.


almost 9 years later, my daughter drew up plans for the renovation, at OH's request. It is very probable that s-i-l had input

I wasn't happy with what she'd designed, but couldn't express what was wrong.

In fact, I now know what she'd done "wrong" ............... she had forgotten how small our kitchen is by North American standards, and designed cabinets that were too wide for the space, so we have limited space in the centre of the kitchen for moving around. Pity we didn't realise it before everything was installed!


OH thought I had agreed to it, and went ahead, ripping everything out, then getting in the workmen, and a carpenter to make the cabinets, etc etc


I hate it!

I feel it is HIS kitchen, and my daughter's


BUT ...... he does do most of the cooking etc now, so I grin and bear it!


At least, the colour scheme is mine, all mine :-D

S.I.C....don't know if it was common anywhere else,but in Lancashire,where i was born and brought up,well-off people paid for clever children to go to Grammar School(I passed my 11+ in 1958)

Alady in the town paid for my auntie to go...bought books.,uniform etc. She was the eldest.

My dad was next,also very clever,but with no-one to sponsor him,he had to leave school and get work in a butchers,so he could contribute to the family,as there were 6 kids altogether

Kay,I went to Grammar School...mi mum worked in the factory,my dad in the pit,but they wanted me to have the best education they could give me.

we had a grant towards school uniform,but thank goodness there were no trips abroad with the school back then,cos there was no money to spare for that! lol

My grandchildren are always coming home with notes for £10 for a trip here,£30 for somewhere else,and sometimes an awful lot more than that!

One of our daughters has 6 children.,one has 4 and the other,2........and in this current climate,where people are unable to get jobs,I think schools should be able to educate children without taking them on days out.

Some of the visits arent even educational.,mine have been to zoos.,soft play areas.,pet farms,etc

We did get taken to museums,etc(which we loved!),but not by the school...my dad took us(on the bus with half a dozen of the neighbours children too!)

Elaine

I'm also a Lancashire lass .......

...... and yes, it was quite common for that to happen at one time.


Similar to your father and sister .......................... my father's eldest brother had 6 children, one of them (second eldest) passed the 11+ in the early 1930s, and went to the Grammar School until she was 16. Then went into nursing.

However, they didn't get any help for her. They struggled to pay for her uniform, etc.

The third eldest passed the 11+ 2 years later.............. but her parents couldn't afford her to go. She has a grudge about that to this day, and she is well into her 80s!

I think that sort of thing happened in many families ........ or the son got to go, while his sisters did not.



BTW .............. I passed my 11+ in 1951, went to uni in 1959.

What part of Lancs are you from S ?

Ooh Sylvia~

I'm with you on the kitchen change ,I'm finding my heels being dug in at the mo regarding decisions on the kitchen,,,that's just me and hubby.

My 2 are 24 and 27, dau has ideas on kitchen...but they are not going to happen !

Sorry to go off track..Errol.................

Humble Mrs T may have been in the Tory eyes of those days and todays ,thank you for your reply and explanation.

I still cannot accept her being quoted as being a humble person in the literal meaning of the word, Gives out the wrong signals.
Don't get me wrong, I've voted Tory,and get the gist of what you have said..

Thanks Sylvia~~~

Elaine ..............



Oldham


where are you from?

Sandie



families, eh???



I wonder if what has happened is that the statement re her humble beginnings was first published back then, when it was true in comparing her with her male compatriots in the party ...................

and it has just been repeated again and again without referencing it to the "modern day"



although ...................... I wonder what is the percentage today of what might loosely call "upper" vs "lower" in the Tories vs Lib Dem vs Labour?!!




I do like to try to bring out what is relevant from my knowledge and experiences from back then!

I did leave the UK, willingly, in 1967, and although we have kept up with a lot of what happens, I don't have that almost innate knowledge anymore, the kind that comes from living in the country.

BTW ......... Anthony Nutting was the son of a Baronet who lived in Leicestershire, his 2 older brothers were killed in WW2, so he inherited the title when his father died in the early 70s. Yet, he was picked as the candidate in one of the 2 Oldham ridings.

Mind you, Winston Churchill first ran for Parliament in Oldham, back in 1899 .......................... and was defeated!


I did upset Nutting ................ I kept asking him a certain question about why something was not being done or had not happened. I forget exactly what it was now, something to do with where door knocking was not happening I think ............................. but I remember his final exasperated reply ........

........ "If you feel so strongly about it, go and do it yourself"!!!!!!!



I was a snotty nosed, new, uni graduate at the time, killing time while looking for work!



and, yes, I was having a hard time finding a job, even back then ................. mainly because the line of work I desperately wanted to be ................ genetics counselling ............... then required not only a degree in Genetics (which I had) but also a Medical degree, which I did not. I gave up applying for those jobs in September, and began to apply for teaching jobs.

I'd also tried to get a job in Forensics with New Scotland Yard :-D

I never claimed unemployment, or welfare. My father supported me with bed and board from June until I started work as a teacher in the following January. Plus I got odd jobs here and there, and used what little savings I had to buy essentials.


I thought I'd hit the jackpot when I got my first pay cheque as a teacher at the end of January ............ monthly take home pay was about £85. I'd never had that much money before!

I had just broken the £100 take home pay per month barrier in my last 2 months before leaving the job in July 1967.


That take home pay (equivalent) doubled when I began working in Texas in September! OH's had done the same


Boy, did we ever feel rich!!

Reading back through this I was beginning to think I was in the minority in thinking Thatcher was not to be universally admired so it was refreshing to wake to the news that, despite opinions expressed on this site, I am in the majority as far as the great British public goes.

The Mirror commissioned a com/res survey -

"reveals that six out of 10 fiercely object to the £10million cost to the nation of Wednesday’s ceremonial send-off. Among them, one in three are even Tory voters. A further 15 per cent expressed no preference.

Almost six in 10 of those interviewed in the ComRes/Sunday Mirror survey also said they believed Baroness Thatcher was the “most divisive” prime minister ever. And our poll reveals that voters disagree with David Cameron’s description of The Iron Lady as “the greatest British peacetime prime minister” by 41 per cent to 33 per cent."