General Chat

Ditto what Joy said.

Before we all take a gallop down the child abuse path let's just look at a few facts.

These are purely allegations and there has been absolutely no mention of child involvement.
The four individuals making the claim were not children at the time.
However, Cardinal O'Brien's resignation was only accepted by Pope Benedict a week ago and he was due to stand down next month when he turned 75. He has now effectively been sacked.

Having looked and listened to various comments on this over the past hour, I have decided to adopt a more balanced perspective on the issue.

I accept the old argument that there is seldom smoke without fire, I am also mindful that these are only allegations and they do not appear at present to relate to underage persons, and as yet they have not been proved to be true.

I know from when I lived in Edinburgh in the 1980's he was a well respected member of the clergy. In saying that, his views were often controversial and as such he was a thorn in the side to many in both the Church and Politics. He often publicly spoke out against policies of all governments and decisions of Churches of all denominations, and when you do that you make an awful lot of enemies.

I also found it strange that these accusations emerged just as the Cardinal was due to take part in the election of a new Pope, and he would probably have favoured a Pope with liberal views, something many hard-liners would not like.

The question is, has he broken the law, if so then he should face the consequences. However, I am surprised the individuals who complained to the Vatican did not also take their complaints to the police, knowing full well the way the Vatican has dealt with such issues in the past.

As I said in a previous post, Scotland has a very thorough criminal investigation system which is operated in conjunction with The Lord Advocate and the Procurator Fiscals. The holders of these offices have the power to interview individuals under oath and to direct investigations by the police, a power usually used where there is an issue of public interest at stake.

In my mind at the moment there are a lot of unanswered questions and it will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash.

Eroll,

Cynthia asked, "As soon as there is something derogatory towards the church in the newspapers.....up goes a new thread.


I wouldn't care, but there seem to be very few churchgoers on here who are willing to stand up and be counted, so why are folk who are non church goers so keen to 'have a go'???"

My post was in direct response to that.

Just for a minute re write the headline

"Britain's top Catholic cleric steps down as Archbishop following allegations of inappropriate behaviour towards priests. Cardinal Keith O'Brien faces claims of inappropriate attention by four priests
One priest alleges 'unwanted behaviour' after late-night drinking
Another priest said he was 18 when 'inappropriately approached'"

As:

One of Britain's top bosses steps down as MD following allegations of inappropriate behaviour towards junior staff. ..... One junior staff member alleges "unwanted behaviour" at the office party. One 18 year old staff member alleges I was 'inappropriately approached'.

Child abuse is being mentioned in this thread...but that is not what the Cardinal is accused of.

Guinevere my comments were not directed at you and apologies if you erroneously thought so

Ann Cardiff

Easy peasy


It was as originally posted ...... When I reported it ....

Can only think your amendment and my RR were simultaneous

I mentioned child abuse, Rose, because Cynthia asked why people had a go at the church "all the time". It wasn't meant to widen the discussion it was an answer to her question, as I said to Errol.

'sok, Errol.

Unless you have been a person who has been abused you cannot imagine what it does to you for the rest of your life. I know because it happened to me and I was so young when it started I thought it happened to everyone. Then I discovered that my mother knew the person and had a relationship with him!
Every day the result is with me.
I was brought up as a Roman Catholic and realise that most of the nuns, priest etc were not leading the life they preached. Yes, I am sure that some were honest and kind including the priest who lead my first marriage and told me that I should not marry the person concerned. He was right but I do have 4 beautiful children.

I have said enough

Ann Cardiff

Have you not seen this posting

where 2 people reported your thread ..... AND so at 14.52 and 14.53

It has been stated ..... try another tact. .......for a change .........


Renes Report Edit Delete 25 Feb 2013 14:53
Ann Cardiff

I have requested your post for review ..... I object to your comment


Joy Kentish Maid Report 25 Feb 2013 14:52
Because readers often seem keen to want to know who reported what by whom:

I reported a post by AnnCardiff on 25 Feb 2013 11:31 as I thought it was irrelevant to the cardinal's resignation / retirement that had been planned and and announced and has now been brought forward slightly.

my heart goes out to you spanish eyes

to write what happend to you must of been very hard
i think you have been very brave :-D :-D

I realised that Gwynne I just thought it was important to point out as the thread was evolving from the OP that there has been no suggestion made that the Cardinal is guilty of child abuse, or covering up of the same.

Any large organisations will cover up abuse, financial irregularities, bad practice...you name it, if it seems the best way to protect itself.... of course one expects better of the church than the BBC for example, because it ( the church) has 'stated' that it has the moral high ground (whereas the BBC does not claim it). But just as all who worked at the BBC are not responsible for the actions of a few ( or even many) I think it's important that, horrendous as the RC cover up has been for decades ( and longer) , blame goes where it should and not be generalised so much and sweep away the 'good people' along with the bad.

Rose I was answering Cythia's question as regarding when there is something derogatory towards the church - up goes another thread.

I was endeavouring to explain why there is this attitude towards the church, more so with Rome. I never even mentioned the word 'Cardinal'.

Of course ... paedophiles should rot away ... hell or wherever

BUT. .... this thread was not about ----

Who are paedophiles?

O'Brien was to retire on the 17th March when he reached the age of 75,where its complusary he retire as Cardinal..

So,,,,,,,,allegations come days before he he due to vote,?
So,,,,,hes already handed in his notice,,,,,,?

These allegations were in place.

why give notice when one only has a month to go before you retire..


Why------has these people waited from the 1980s till now to bring these allegations,when since then cases have been in high numbers against RC priests when their allegations would have helped strengthen past cases.....


A big carpet with a big mound under it and a now bigger sweeping brush,

Will more priests be quaking in their cassocks....... ;-).

Kay sometimes it takes a long time for people to summon up the courage to make a report or allegation

My understanding is that although they do indeed retire at 75 they are required to actually hand in their resignation - if someone knows more on this please add and I will stand corrected

I'll wait for the facts or whatever will be issued as facts by the RC church and Vatican.

I still have my eyebrows up in my hairline re a Pope resigning and now this resignation and the allegations floating around the media only reinforce my initial feelings.

Whatever the truth there appears to be something very wrong within an organisation which is supposed to be 100% trustworthy.

Errol

I know,,,,,,how long it can take to summon up courage.!

3 of these are priests themsleves,they know the importance of these circumstances from past cases.

He tendered his notice on the 18th Feb 2013 ,,,,,the Pope gave him leave asp.he still had till the 17th March 2013 to officially carry out his duites.......so these allegations to me was known of on or before the 18thFeb,2013.

I have been ironing.

I had already made the decision to report Ann's remark, unless it had been edited, when I came back. I have only ever reported one other comment in my 10 years on the site.

However, I see that I have been pipped at the post.


I quite agree that clergy should set a good example as, indeed, should teachers, care workers and nurses.


We send our children to school and trust the school to have the child's wellbeing at heart. The reports of school teachers who have been accused of 'inappropriate behaviour' with children in their care is appalling. Do ALL teachers behave like this? Of course not.


Sometimes we have to place those we love into care thinking that they will provide the care we are unable to give. The cases of humiliating abuse by care workers to those in their care is horrifying. Does this make ALL care workers guilty of abuse? Of course not.


We go into hospital to be nursed back to health. Nurses have been accused of abuse and neglect to patients. Are ALL nurses guilty of this behaviour? Of course not.


Mention the word church/priest/nun......and off we go.............so, so sad :-(