General Chat

...because initially John you said you only had 1 O'level & I was thinking how times must have changed.

So now I have to ask why didn't you get Welsh O'level/ A Level as people taking subjects like that help keep them alive.

Nice to see a good English Education got you on the road to Uni :-D

John, I need no lesson from you about Dylan Thomas, please don't be so patronising. I studied his poetry in some depth as a student, with excellent tutors.

I have to agree, though, that the Welsh poetry of today is nothing compared to that of the past.

BK. Got one O level (Maths) at 15. Failed other 6.

Then managed to get 3 O's at 16 English Language, French and History). And two years later took 3 A levels. Wasn't academic at all (clearly) and dad found me a job in Nat Prov Bank (which became Nat West). So became a junior bank clerk in West Bromwich High St for a year. Quite good - £340pa.

During that year, I gained confidence and realised my A levels (A in Ecomomics, B in English Language and Literature and C in Geography) were quite good. And Bank were willing to release me and sponsor me a bit and keep my job open for 3 years :-D Did Economics degree (best subject was statistics). And, after Bangor, they placed me as a Senior Management Trainee (£1,200pa) in a large branch in Cornhill, London. Hated it and got a job with a very cheap and nasty company called Tesco as a "graduate trainee". And had over 20 very happy years with them and saw them go from "Pile it High, Sell it Cheap" to the leading UK supermarket company.

Know that will be too long for some and they won't believe a word of it, but that is my version of events. Any particular reason for asking, BK?

I do like what you're researching Merlin :-D :-D :-D

BK, I think he got an "Ology" :-D For Rabbiting.

John I have been reading the tread again & would like to know How did you get into University? What qualifications did you get? I only ask because i'm interested. :-D

I would never claim to know much about poetry or art, Gwynne. Have to defer to the experts. But, like many, I know what I like. A poem gets into my soul, a painting gets into my soul. I used to be able to recite by heart much of L.Allegro - "hence loathed Melancholy Of Cerberus and blackest midnight born, In Stygian Cave forlorn 'Mongst horrid shapes, and shreiks, and sights unholy" And sonnets on his blindness, and on becoming 23 years old. In Welsh, the one that reached fabulous heights for me won the Chair at Bangor Eisteddfod in 1902. Called "Ymadawiad Arthur" (Arthur's Departure) by T Gwynne Jones. It is about the island of Avalon - a sort of Shangri-lah. Beautifully crafted poem. The opening line: "draw dros y don mae bro dirion" (yonder, across the waves, there is a gentle vale)

Dylan Thomas was brought up in an English speaking home in Uplands, Swansea. Parents were fluent Welsh speakers but insisted on using English in front of children. Father was local English teacher at a time when Welsh was not taken at all seriously. Dylan never knew much Welsh, and never wrote in that language as far as I know. Yes, a great wordsmith

I've been on the death ride buses in Malta Sue - I think I read recently that they have been scrapped

I took my driving license when I went there with my Mum so we could hire a car but when I saw the state of the roads I decided against it

2 great Canadian poets wrote them. Their work is lauded world-wide, by people with a much deeper understanding of literature than you seem to have, John.

They are revered alongside the English poets you mention for their use of the best language for poetry - English.

English is far easier on the ears than the harsh Welsh of the north, although the gentle Welsh of the west is easier on the ears. And English has a lot more words for poets to play with.

That's why Dylan wrote in English - and so well.

Well I was hunting on youtube for a piece of poetry read in both Gaelic and English or Welsh and English to compare...but no joy so far. However found this Stephen Fry discussing the Irish language, which is quite interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H60kpWhyeZc

Gwynne. I suppose poetry is a very personal thing. That was exactly the type of poetry I heard all those years ago.

I just feel that the craftsmanship of Milton, Shelley and Shakespeare is much better than those examples. And Welsh poetry (probably like many other Gaelic/Celtic languages) is so much finer again - mainly because those languages are so much more soothing on the ear than English. And those languages are steeped in a romanticism that goes back well over 1,000 years.

Enjoyed what you wrote. You do make a good case.

Punches air! ...because someone mentioned Cohen before I felt compelled to do so ;-)

I am debating whether to add a comment or twenty about Malta, we owned a timeshare there until a year after my botched op.

Don't want to appear like a 'know it all' :-(

As Malta's income is via tourism they have to speak English and do.

Anyone who has travelled around Malta on one of the death buses will confirm that all the notices by the driver are in English and all say (in one form or another) 'IN GOD WE TRUST'
:-D :-D :-D

Don't think any of my family have ever had strong accents. When I speak in Welsh, I tend to go very gogleddol (northern) but that is probably because I learnt to speak Welsh mostly in Bangor area. Mother and wife both had/have slight Welsh accents (Colwyn Bay and Holywell) and my dad and me have slight Wolverhampton accents. Mine is so mixed now that very few guess my accent. One asked me if I was from South London other day. Another Liverpool. And my daughter says I sound more and more Welsh these days, so I don't know.

But, when I was growing up, no way could I understand Gornalese of the nearby Black Country. They spoke a dialect there that was supposed to be very close to Chaucerian English. The characters Aynuk and Alay (Enoch and Eli) came from Gormal. So did newsreader Sue Lawley, would you believe :-0 :-0

I'd match John McCrae against anything Wales has produced - even my beloved Dylan Thomas.

In Flanders Field by John McCrae

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

Disarmament by John McCrae

One spake amid the nations, "Let us cease
From darkening with strife the fair World's light,
We who are great in war be great in peace.
No longer let us plead the cause by might."

But from a million British graves took birth
A silent voice -- the million spake as one --
"If ye have righted all the wrongs of earth
Lay by the sword! Its work and ours is done."

That's one of the best that Canada has.

Also Leonard Cohen -

"Bird On The Wire"


Like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.
Like a worm on a hook,
like a knight from some old fashioned book
I have saved all my ribbons for thee.
If I, if I have been unkind,
I hope that you can just let it go by.
If I, if I have been untrue
I hope you know it was never to you.
Like a baby, stillborn,
like a beast with his horn
I have torn everyone who reached out for me.
But I swear by this song
and by all that I have done wrong
I will make it all up to thee.
I saw a beggar leaning on his wooden crutch,
he said to me, "You must not ask for so much."
And a pretty woman leaning in her darkened door,
she cried to me, "Hey, why not ask for more?"

Oh like a bird on the wire,
like a drunk in a midnight choir
I have tried in my way to be free.

I'd pay a lot more than £85 for an evening of that quality. Shame you are so bigoted and deaf to any poetry other than the rather bland, unimaginative stuff today's druids create.

I agree with you RR

John it would be good if you take note of it & stop raming Wales down peoples throats.

PS ! :-| My last post was not meant to suggest that anyone who DOES use the strong dialect of their (*edit word to better express) Homeland NATURALLY shouldn't do so, quite the opposite. :-D

I am struggling with this proposal of world domination through Estuary English, DET. How old is that language. How does it compare with English (673 years of literature and culture). Or Welsh? (1470 years)? I expect the quality of ethnic poetry and folk music is on a par with very modern cultures.

I once attended an evening of Canadian poetry. The best they had to offer. Not worth the £85. Would rather spend my money as an away supporter at the Emirates. Or to watch my two favourite rugby nations at Millennium in Cardiff on 2nd February :-D :-D

There was a comment in 'Lewis' ( repeat) last week that might be a bit relevant to this thread ( btw I like watching Lewis, good characterisation, interesting dynamic between Lewis and Hathaway...who reminds me rather of an ex...but I digress lol)

Lewis ( being a Geordie) was talking to a fellow Geordie ( aka the victim) and said, re not using the Geordie dialect, words to the effect that " I've never been a professional Geordie" ie he wasn't going to 'put it on' just to 'fit' what was expected.

I think it's important not to do that...become a 'professional' Cockney, Scouser, Mancunian' whatever. Be proud of where you live or come from if you are...but don't ram it down everyone's throat...because ultimately that does a dis-service to the differences that make the country more interesting :-)

SUE I SAID ........................ :-D :-D :-D :-D