General Chat

Back to the origins - Lewis both refused to pay for the goods unless the total was given him in Welsh, and then he refused to leave the shop until this was done (( read all the reports on the 'incident')).
It was at this point the police were involved.

Thank you, Tecwyn, I'd not read any local responses before your post.

Sums it up really. The man has done far more harm than good, and as the 'English' papers also reported it, has become a laughing stock who has given 'the english' their own 'pointed stick' to dig into the Principality per se.

Well done, Dr Pratt.

Most Welsh speakers are quite flattered when non Welsh speakers say a few phrases like "Thankyou" (Diolch yn fawr). And visitors do like to practice a few phrases.

It is a nice language and if flows a lot better than English and is easier and more natural. And a big advantage is that it is phonetic - so once you can pronounce the alphabet (which is quite different to English A-Z) you can say quite long words with ease. Only really difficult letter is "ll". But a lot of English newsreaders pronounce it "cl" and that usually doesn't sound too wrong at the beginning of a place name.

There is an inferiority complex about using Welsh. I remember when George Borrow was walking in Wales nearly 200 years ago that he spoke Welsh with a maid and she said she would rather speak English as it was more genteel.

And we have had things like the "Welsh not" less than 100 years ago when no children were allowed to speak Welsh at school and were punished if overheard.

And then films, TV of 1930's and 1940's were often American English. So it is not surprising that Welsh was dying out rapidly by the time Saunders Lewis (the well-known "Englishman" who was born in Birkenhead;-))gave his radio address called Tynged yr Iaith (Fate of the Welsh Language). That spurned the Welsh Language Society, painting out road signs etc and there has been fantastic attempts to save the language since then. I think Saunders Lewis said teh language would have totally died out as a living language spoken round hearths within two generations ie by now.

This issue at Spar checkout was resolved to the satisfaction of Dr Lewis before this thread started. And the store was making no issue of it. But it has certainly been a big talking point on here. I have always thought that several have judged an elderly man guilty on insufficient evidence. I would not like you to be on my jury. :-) More like Wild West than Hywel Dda.

As I have said - I've caused many a giggle from people when I've attempted to pronounce words or names in my Aussie accent. I think it was appreciated that I tried. Just saying "thank you" in Welsh brought a smile to most faces.

Heavens...still going today. Thanks Tec :-D

I have not found myself persuaded that this chap is anything but a self serving publicist!

Chatting with Sandie I mentioned that I couldn't remember the last time the sum owed wasn't given in English even where I live.

I think he has done a disservice to the Welsh language cause, even if only temporarily. Researching him and reading some of his words of wisdom makes me cringe. You need water not petrol when dealing with a potential fire.

Re staff on tills, I buy things in a very Welsh shop, they know when I am struggling and will speak in English. There is no tut tutting and they want my nearly 30 years of custom to continue. Plus they don't need bad publicity. My son has a saying: the 3 quickest forms of communication are telephone, telegraph and tell a Cardi.....and boy is that true.

I agree Sue and if that is the case on any thread ..say so. No prob. :-)

I have to agree with John on one of his points. There is nothing wrong with changing your initial views when more information becomes available or you begin to see other people's points of view.

I think the letter in the paper sums it up perfectly..who does HE think he is tellling people how they should or should not speak in a bilingual country...pompous old git.

Sandie Dr Lewis wants to live through Welsh language if he is speaking Welsh. English when he is speaking English. I can understand that.

I have said a few times on this thread that some Welsh speakers go into English for money. It does seem wrong to some Welsh speakers (not many) that that happens when it is as easy to state money in Welsh as English.

I have changed my stance slightly during this long thread - particularly when a local poster (Tecwyn?) made some points about the store in Pwllheli and the recent forays by Dr Lewis on certain local issues.

But since when in a long discussion thread is it a FAULT to change your stance? Particularly if significant new information surfaces (which it hasn't really in this case)

I give up :-( :-(
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JohnLovesCocoa Report 12 Jan 2013 20:13

Two examples here below. I think if I trawl through the thread (which I won't) I might find I made that point more than twice.
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What happens next......2 quotes from 30 Dec , obviously trawled for.
Am I surprised..NO !
You can't remember what you said a few minutes before or don't mean what you say .

Those posts where made after you said the Dr was annoyed because the cashier had changed from speaking Welsh to English suddenly and that was why he was annoyed , not because you think a lot of Welsh speakers ask for the money in English.

I have made my point and will make no further comments on the said Dr or yourself on this thread.
:-)

Hayley. Can't work out why you think I am goading. Don't know anything about the cashier, but it is quite a hard job and you need to be very efficient, polite and good with all types of customers. A lot of the winter customers in Pwllheli will be older people, Welsh speaking in the main, with all the grumps and grouses, aches and pains of that generation.

Dr Lewis has a bee in his bonnet about Welsh language. Hands up on this thread who hasn't got a bee in their bonnet about something. Well, cashiers often have to listen to your bees and reply politely. He feels she didn't. Unlike others, I really don't know. I wasn't there.

Rebekah. I was writing about an estate in Merthyr Tydfil earlier and thinking about what you said about Aberkenfig (boys throwing stones at you in a graveyard) and Brynmelyn (woman angry because you had an English accent).

I have recently had to do some work in that estate in Merthyr (average age of death 58!!). It was poor, deprived, black streets as per Charles Booth classification probably). Yet I had no problems at all. Met some very pleasant (really pleasant actually) people. Those things seem to happen in places where you least expect them.

Glad you are coming back to Wales. Sure you will get red carpet treatment.

Two examples here below. I think if I trawl through the thread (which I won't) I might find I made that point more than twice.

I have tried to be as fair as I can to the cashier, having tried to defend Dr Robyn. I do not know the cashier or the manager and only know Dr Lewis by reputation (good and bad) and what one or two - close to Pwllheli and knowing the Welsh language situation there - have written. But to suggest that the cashier could not have acted differently and that it was all the fault of Dr Lewis is not fair. Certainly not fair on the scant information provided from that Cambrian News piece in OP.

30 Dec 1648
I would suggest that the assistant had had a bad day. And he was a grumpy old man. It happens!

I think she would have spoken to customers in Welsh and probably asked for the money in English

30 Dec 23.43
I do think it possible that Spar cashiers are taught to use English in the money part of the transaction. They would be encouraged to chat to the customer in the language most natural during the time she was ringing the goods. And then a lot of Welsh speakers seem to use English for stating money.

For those that didnt spot it :

Just because Dr Lewis is 83 with a glittering career of academic, literary and legal achievment behind him doesn't automatically mean he has more commonsense than the cashier or manager.

Is a very obvious goad, sorry John but you are getting boring with it now must try harder :-D :-D :-D

Sounds to me like the locals think Lewis was an arrogant old fool too !!!! And rightly so !!!! Good for them !!!!!
I'm guessing Spar aren't going to have any problems through lack of revenue from this after all eh? :-D :-D :-D

But she decided to be awkward and pushed her bell. And the manager took her side and called for the police. And Dr Lewis (who does not look much like a terrorist to me - rather pleasant and mild-mannered and bookish, I would suggest) dug his 83 year old heels in.

Probably could have dealt with it differently in hindsight. But we all see a red mist at times, and not so easy to walk away and be as diplomatic as we would like. But I have a lot of sympathy for the old boy. Still got loads of spirit.
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Little extract from a post by John....
John you really must stop trying to jump from the swings onto the roundabout as you keep falling off,,,,,,,,,!but you still wont admit the bad man needed a punch on the nose......... :-)

Sandie and John; No it hasnt put me off - I was probably unlucky as you say. Lord knows there's enough riff raff in every city and town in Britain. Lucky (?) Wales will be hosting me again in the near future. I shall expect a red carpet upon my arrival. :-D :-D

Quote from John's post- 12 Jan 2013 ,17.48
"She was, as do many first language Welsh speakers in Pwllheli and elsewhere, using English when speaking numeric totals. " I think that is a very good point - because it is one I have made that nobody on this thread has picked up.
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Where ? Because I can't see it ! That's why no one has picked up on it !!
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Previous quote ----( no mention of changing to English when speaking numerical totals ) !!
'Thank goodness for DET's contribution. As usual, I must have used the wrong words.
But I do not think Robyn Lewis comes out with any medals from this.
The girl was Welsh speaking and he had been speaking to her in Welsh.

That was why he was annoyed that she changed to English suddenly.

Us old people do get annoyed in shops and on the phone occasionally, you know. And most companies train their customer staff to deal with us annoying old people. Not including Genes in this obviously.'
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Your point in that post John was that she suddenly changed to English from Welsh, and the Dr was annoyed , not that many Welsh speakers use English when speaking numerical totals,

Try and remember what you have posted previously please, you look silly when you change your mind :-|

Thanks Tecwyn. I honestly think those points have been made here already on this very long thread. Couldn't see anything new except it was local letters.

"She was, as do many first language Welsh speakers in Pwllheli and elsewhere, using English when speaking numeric totals. " I think that is a very good point - because it is one I have made that nobody on this thread has picked up.

I think if somebody like Dr Lewis wants "popeth yn Gymraeg" (everything in Welsh) in a legally bi-lingual country, he has some sort of entitlement to try for that. Particularly if faced with a cashier and manager whose first language is Welsh. And the blue touch paper should never have been lit. Just because Dr Lewis is 83 with a glittering career of academic, literary and legal achievment behind him doesn't automatically mean he has more commonsense than the cashier or manager.

Letters page Cambrian News 10th January 2013



Insistence of Welsh at till borders on dictatorship
Madam,

Yet again we have a row over the language issue. I was under the impression that Wales is officially a bilingual country, ie with equal status to both Welsh and English.

In the case in question, the gentleman concerned had been spoken to legally in both languages, so what was the problem?

To insist that the assistant, who had quoted the cost of the shopping in English, should then translate the amount into Welsh just to humour him is bordering on dictatorship. Both languages are acceptable in Wales, therefore the lady at the till had done nothing wrong.

If it were my store I would ban him from entering it, and yes I am Welsh but at the same time I do exercise common sense where possible. I would personally have to think hard to translate monetary amounts into Welsh and, when you have a queue waiting, the priority is to serve as many customers as possible in the quickest time. Most of us do not have the luxury of time on our hands to be nit-picking whilst shopping.

This is yet another case of dictating how we should speak. It should be up to the individual to choose, not dictators. When will these fanatics realise the detrimental effect their actions are having on the language? The Census figures published recently indicate this very plainly. The language will only die when it is being thrust and forced down our throats.

So Mr Lewis expects an apology after being ‘humiliated’! How does he think that the young lady at the till felt? Maybe she would like an apology for being humiliated in front of other customers. Also what a waste of police resources.

Finally, I suggest that Robyn Lewis finds somewhere that only Welsh is spoken to do his shopping. I don’t know where he will find that place! Good luck to him in his search.

M Evans, Pwllheli
10 January 2013
Better to have resisted making a scene
Madam,

Re your story, ‘Police called as row breaks out at till’, Cambrian News Arfon/Dwyfor front page, 27 December,

Dr Robyn Lewis should realise how difficult it can be to employ Welsh speaking staff. With the influx of European workers he should not assume that any person in any workplace is a Welsh speaker. If he finds that someone cannot speak to him in his native tongue then he is at liberty to put down his goods and walk away if he finds it so offensive. I would imagine that the goods he had in his basket were, in the majority, labelled in other than Welsh. Surely it would have been better to accept the situation and resist the temptation to make a scene.

All employers that I know of in Pwllheli go to long lengths to have Welsh speakers on duty, but this is not always possible. Would Dr Lewis wish employers to resist using European staff who do not grasp Welsh (probably a policy that would breach employment law)? In this day and age, many nationals of many countries live and work in Wales and also run businesses.

Does Dr Lewis never frequent Indian, Chinese, Italian or Turkish eateries where, because of the very nature of the establishments, they employ only those who speak the relevant language? What must any tourists have thought of an educated man making such a scene?

Surely they (who are an essential to the economy of the peninsular) would have been made to feel unwelcome. Without tourism there would be no economy, and eventually even Welsh-speaking people who are born and bred here would have no choice but to move away.

Come on Dr Lewis, work with all the residents to promote the use of the beauty and language of Wales instead of having the sort of attitude that you do.

Name and address withheld
10 January 2013
Antagonistic approach interpreted as anti-English
Madam,

First I must state that I write as a British-born European of Anglo-Irish, Welsh, Scots, Anglo-Norman French, Anglo-Welsh origin, as all eight of my great grandparents were of different nationalities brought to the United Kingdom by birth or circumstance. I have no nationalist axe to grind therefore.

As a retired foreign languages teacher I can support Dr Lewis in his wish to promote the Welsh language, as I would urge all monoglot English users to acquire multilinguist skills. However, he fails in his quest to promote the language by adopting an antagonistic approach which is interpreted as anti-English. He may regret the dominance of the first language or lingua franca of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland of which he, like me, is a citizen.

We live in an area, a region of the UK, in which many have to learn English as a second language, most education being through the medium of Welsh. The predominance of English is a result of the necessity to communicate with the wider world which uses versions of the English and American languages.Whilst appreciating Dr Lewis’ preference to use his first language, I would urge him to adopt a less aggressive approach in his campaign.

Perhaps if he had repeated the figure of his bill total in Welsh, having heard and obviously comprehended it in English he would have noted the response of the employee. She was, as do many first language Welsh speakers in Pwllheli and elsewhere, using English when speaking numeric totals. I know a number of locally-born, primarily Welsh-speaking people in business who do this. Instead of this quieter, educative and pragmatic approach, Dr Lewis caused a storm in a teacup and succeeded in gaining further publicity, adding to his notoriety, as perceived, as the modern Owain Glyndwr, self-appointed protector of Welsh culture.

I regret the progressive infection of American usage in English - railway station replaced by train station; normal or ordinary replaced by regular; the in correct pronunciation of drawing as draw-r-ing and kilometer as killomiter, and many more. One must persevere to promote and not try to enforce the language. The councillors and members of the Senedd in Cardiff/Caerdydd may well waste national resources of time and money in schemes to promote and reinforce Welsh usage but their laudable aim cannot be achieved by force.

Finally, Wales is being held back by policies perceived from outside Wales as restrictive and obstructive, adding unnecessary costs to business. A more pragmatic and less Apartheid stance needs to be taken. I have lived in Germany, England, France and chose to return to this area of Wales despite my prospects for employment as a non Welsh-speaking teacher/broadcaster/writer being limited to the areas of north Wales where a less restrictive language employment policy was in force.

I do not regret that decision. I do regret seeing the decline of an area, not helped by the current debate and differences of opinion over the language issue. North Wales and the Welsh language is only part of a much bigger picture.

Stuart de la Haye, writer and broadcaster, Clynnog Fawr
10 January 2013

Booth's definition of black streets:

"The lowest class which consists of some occasional labourers, street sellers, loafers, criminals and semi-criminals. Their life is the life of savages, with vicissitudes of extreme hardship and their only luxury is drink"

I should live in a red street but mine is purple. Hope Booth doesn't try and post on here :-( :-( At least we don't try and shove follk in boxes today - as I was telling my D and E friends.