General Chat

Oooops. So I did Emma.........will delete one....thanks.


No quips from my vicar today - sorry - he is away!!


2 babies baptised in the main service = mayhem! I do wonder how people would react if, whilst they were watching a play or a film, others got up and wandered around.........ah well.......only another 14 baptisms to go this month...... ;-)

How dare he go away Cynthia :-D

Goodness me what a lot....can't understand it myself
so rude and if it happened to them bet they would say
something...none as queer as folk :-)

Emma :-)

Have been thinking a lot about child baptism this weekend. I was reading what John Wesley said about it (Sermon 44 of his 44 published sermons) and how it clashed with the psalmist King David "All are born in sin and shapen in crookedness"

Wesley believed babies were born in sin and that an infant (paedo) baptism "covered" them until they were of an age to decide for or against God. He was a very traditional Anglican and was totally committed to the rules of his church - which was always C of E. But I think Roman Catholics also hold same view about children ie born in sin, but covered by water baptism.

I have formed the opinion this weekend that neither the ceremony nor the fact that one of the parents is a committed Christian is what covers the infant. It is having a relation or a close friend who is truly praying that the child will grow up to believe in the truth. It may be a Godly grandparent or a Godly "aunt". Thus the church service in front of hundreds is a "nice to do" rather than a "must do" imho.

Mind, there is no excuse (other than a health problem) why a small child should be dashing round a church during a baptismal service. There is a time and a place. When I am eating my chips and cheeseburger in MacDonalds seems to be considered the most appropriate time for children to whoop and dash round. Church is slightly different - whoops, there goes my coke again :-( :-(

Baptism wasn't an idea from Wesley John, it is part of the Christian church's belief in 'original' sin and that, in baptism, by the water.....we are taking part in the dying and rising of Christ.

The Methodist church also believe in it....... ;-)

Good morning...........


How about a hymn for a change? :-)


Some of you may remember this one - we sang it yesterday and it's been rattling around in my head :-D

Chorus: It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer;
It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer.

Not my mother, not my father
But it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer.

Chorus: It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer;
It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer.

Not my brother, not my sister
But it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer.

Chorus: It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer;
It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer.

Not my elder, not my leader
But it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer.

Chorus: It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer;
It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer.

Chorus: It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer;
It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer.

Not the preacher, not the sinner
But it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer.

Chorus: It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer; It's me, it's me, oh Lord
Standing in the need of prayer.

- author unknown.


Here it is, sung by children.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMxfCVeCt_s


Do hope you are all well....... :-)

Cynthia. I hope I did not imply that baptism was an idea from Wesley.

What I wrote was that Wesley was firmly committed to the rules of his church, which was the Anglican Church. He was always a very devout member of the Church of England and in fact reintroduced one or two of their traditions that they had lost - like the Covenant Service of Rev John Alleyn which had been very popular in C of E in 1700 but had almost disappeared by 1750.

You will know that Baptists and one or two other denominations do not like the idea of paedo baptisms. I do, and I was baptised as an infant and am pleased my parents did that. But what I was suggesting is that a baptism in church or chapel is a "nice to do" not a "must do". And that a child does not necessarily need to be covered for sin by a *parent* who is Godly. That a child can be covered for sin by a Godly grandparent, uncle or aunt or even a close friend of the family.

As long as someone close is looking out for their spiritual growth. That was what I was suggesting. :-)

Thanks very much for hymn this morning. We finished service yesterday (my theme was original sin, that's why baptism was on my mind) with Amazing Grace. 80 Welsh people in congregation (many of them members of choirs) and an excellent organist. A foretaste of heaven :-) :-)

I am involved in baptism preparation classes and, one of the things which we strongly stress, is that infant baptism is the beginning of the child's Christian journey - it is not the end of it.


It is hoped that the promises made by the parents and Godparents, will be undertaken in a serious manner and that, hopefully, it will lead to the child being confirmed and making the promises for themselves.


I always add, that if the parents are uneasy about the baptism promises, there is a service of blessing available as an alternative.


In an ideal world, it would be great if the child could be encouraged by the whole family but sadly, that is not the case in so many instances. :-(


As we are part of the state church, we have a duty of responsibility to the people living within the parish boundaries re baptisms, marriages and funerals .....whether they understand the faith or not. We can only try to help them understand what it is they are undertaking. It's an uphill battle at times.

I hope I have put across that I am in favour of children being baptised as infants. And I have loved to hear these stories of so many people wanting to go through this ceremony in your church, Cynthia.

The parents and even Godparents may not fully understand what they are doing, but they appreciate the tradition to a degree and have a good family celebration day built round a church ordination. So all good, and the patience that you have to explain all of this to them is great, Cynthia.

Methodists of course do same thing. We are still very Anglican in our ordinances.

I did see one "introduction of an infant to the church" in one independent church I was a member of. It was very similar in some respects, but no water was used and the purpose of the service was to introduce child to God and to the wider church of which he would become a member. The child is now 15, appears to be a committed Christian and is preparing for an adult baptism in a Baptist chapel baptistry nearby in a couple of years time. The local Baptist Church was happy to allow non-Baptists to adult baptise in their little baptistry.

Good tip for genealogists. Almost all got baptised years ago, but some (not only Baptists) would have been adults when it occurred.

There are two fundamental needs - a) the need to belong & b) the need to be unique.

Happily, we humans have both - and don't let anyone persuade you otherwise.

Hello Dermot :-)


John, your point about adult baptism is very true. I was 21 when I was baptised and then I was confirmed a short time afterwards. My parents were in the Salvation Army when I was born and, in the SA, you are Dedicated not Baptised. :-)


Some thoughts for today....



Take Nothing for Granted


Take nothing for granted,
for whenever you do
The “joy of enjoying”
is lessened for you…

For we rob our own lives
much more than we know
When we fail to respond
or in any way show....

Our thanks for the blessings
that daily are ours…
the warmth of the sun,
the fragrance of flowers.

The beauty of twilight,
the freshness of dawn,
The coolness of dew
on a green velvet lawn.

The kind little deeds
so thoughtfully done,
The favors of friends
and the love that someone ...

Unselfishly gives us
in a myriad of ways,
Expecting no payment
and no words of praise…

Oh, great is our loss
when we no longer find
A thankful response
to things of this kind,

For the Joy of Enjoying
and the Fullness of Living
Are found in the heart
that is filled with Thanksgiving.


- Helen Steiner Rice


Cx :-)

Good morning.......... :-)


A Scottish Blessing for today......


May the blessing of light be on you - light without and light within.
May the blessed sunlight shine on you like a great peat fire,
so that stranger and friend may come and warm himself at it.

And may light shine out of the two eyes of you,
like a candle set in the window of a house,
bidding the wanderer come in out of the storm.

And may the blessing of the rain be on you,
may it beat upon your Spirit and wash it fair and clean,
and leave there a shining pool where the blue of Heaven shines,
and sometimes a star.

And may the blessing of the earth be on you,
soft under your feet as you pass along the roads,
soft under you as you lie out on it, tired at the end of day;

And may it rest easy over you when, at last, you lie out under it.
May it rest so lightly over you that your soul may be out from under it quickly; up and off and on its way to God.
And now may the Lord bless you, and bless you kindly. Amen.



Hope everyone is well.......... Cx :-)

Amen

Thank you Cynthia :-)

Hello Everyone.

A hectic time last night with the families of the 14 babies who are to be baptised during August. Some of the 'team' were missing, so a lot of responsibility fell onto my shoulders but, I coped......and the others were brilliant as they pattered around making drinks for everyone and helping me with the presentation :-D

Two of the families - who were connected - were late in arriving, so I took them to one side after the others had gone and went through things with them that way. They were very attentive and wanted to take the service book home to look at in more depth.


Anyway, we have a new day ahead of us........



The Mystery of Life

We walk in a world that is strange and unknown
And in the midst of the crowd we still feel alone,
We question our purpose, our part and our place
In this vast land of mystery suspended in space,

We probe and explore and try hard to explain
The tumult of thoughts that our minds entertain…
But all of our probings and complex explanations
Of man’s inner feelings and fears and frustrations...

Still leave us engulfed in the “mystery of life”
With all of its struggles and suffering and strife,
Unable to fathom what tomorrow will bring –
But there is one truth to which we can cling,

For while life’s a mystery we can’t understand
The “great giver of life” is holding our hand
And safe in His care there is no need for seeing
For “in Him we live and move and have our being.”


- Helen Steiner Rice.


Cx :-)

14 babies!!! And all those parents. You must be so tired this morning, Cynthia. :-) How lovely that some wanted to look more closely at the words in the Service Book.

Thankyou for lovely thoughts this morning.

My little offering is from a blind American evangelist, Fanny Crosby. From her hymn/song Blessed Assurance. When you consider she was blind for almost all her 95 year life, I think words are quite remarkable and very spiritual:

Perfect submission, perfect delight
Visions of rapture burst on my sight.
Angels descending, bring from above,
Echoes of mercy, whispers of love:
This is my story, this is my song,
Praising my Saviour all the day long

Amen.

I remember that hymn well John.......we don't often sing it though....... :-(

Good morning and, as we are in the 'wedding season' for many couples, I wonder how many of you had this hymn at your wedding? :-)


Charles Wesley's inspiring..............Love Divine...


Love divine, all loves excelling,
Joy of heaven to earth come down;
Fix in us thy humble dwelling;
All thy faithful mercies crown!
Jesus, Thou art all compassion,
Pure unbounded love Thou art;
Visit us with Thy salvation;
Enter every trembling heart.

Breathe, O breathe Thy loving Spirit,
Into every troubled breast!
Let us all in Thee inherit;
Let us find that second rest.
Take away our bent to sinning;
Alpha and Omega be;
End of faith, as its Beginning,
Set our hearts at liberty.

Come, Almighty to deliver,
Let us all Thy life receive;
Suddenly return and never,
Never more Thy temples leave.
Thee we would be always blessing,
Serve Thee as Thy hosts above,
Pray and praise Thee without ceasing,
Glory in Thy perfect love.

Finish, then, Thy new creation;
Pure and spotless let us be.
Let us see Thy great salvation
Perfectly restored in Thee;
Changed from glory into glory,
Till in heaven we take our place,
Till we cast our crowns before Thee,
Lost in wonder, love, and praise.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAJbMcQRfy0


Cx :-)

Have just had to check, Cynthia. I thought we had "Perfect Submission" and "Fight the Good Fight". ;-)

But apparently we did have "Love Divine". Married in Church of England in Wales (think that is full title of Church in Wales) in a little village above Holywell (Brynford) :-D :-D

Beautiful hymn with beautiful words - written by a man who had a long and happy marriage to a Welsh girl Sally Gwynne from Breconshire. And you need some good singers for that seventh line :-) :-)

Interesting if anyone can remember a hymn at their wedding. Some very good memories. Wish mine was - forget names of my children now like my father used to mix me and my brother up.

I have just watched "Love Divine" sung in Wells Cathedral. Another hymn nearby mentioned Samuel Sebastian Wesley as author - he was son of Charles (1707-1788).

That reminded me that there were 3 Wesley brothers. John (1703-1791) is most famous. Then hymnwriter Charles (1707-1788). But they had an older brother Samuel born 1691.

Samuel Wesley was educated at Westminster School before entering Christ Church, Oxford in 1711 where he received a Bachelor of Arts degree in 1715 and a M.A. in 1718. He was ordained and became head usher at Westminster School for 20 years from 1713 to 1733). After that he was master of Blundell's School, Tiverton, where he died after a short illness on 6 November 1739. He is buried in the Tiverton churchyard, aged 49.

Samuel Wesley married Ursula Berry (died c1742), daughter of the Reverend John Berry, vicar of Walton, Norfolk. They had six children, four of whom died in infancy. Only a daughter survived them. (note his parents Rev Samuel and Susanah Wesley had 19 children, and only 3 boys and 6 girls survived infancy).

Samuel Wesley was described as a high church Tory. He died a few months after his brothers began their Methodist mission that was to so invigorate the Church of England and all other denominations. He wrote a few hymns that still appear in hymnbooks today.

As one of the poppers-in, I'd like to say thank you Cynthia and other posters for your daily thoughts.

At my wedding 50 years ago we had "Now Thank We All Our God" and "Lead Us Heavenly Father Lead Us". I remember choosing them as the words seemed quite appropriate but I now think "Now Thank We All Our God" can sound a bit dreary.

I must ask OH if he remembers what hymns we had but I think I know what his answer will be.

Praise my Soul the King of Heaven and Guide Me Oh Thou Great Redeemer....... both hymns are still amongst our favourites and so lovely to recall even now.