General Chat

As has been said, John,:
a) These people will be working for us
b) Why should we seek out information - I didn't know where it was until a link was put up on here
c) The people on this board are not an example of the number of people who don't have a computer - but area fine example of what people think of the idea
d) No-one asked if we wanted this - no-one has explained the ramifications fully
e) Even if you have a computer, the sparse details of the ideas put forward by people who apparently have no idea what the job is, but fancy the salary give one no idea of the reality.
f) I think we all know it's so the government have more control over the police - and persoally, I don't vote for puppets

John, I have looked at the candidates in my and other areas i have also researched what this police commissioner thing is all about, and as i said on page one of this thread 16 Nov 2012 11:26

quote; I would have voted if i had the freedom to vote against changing the police authorities system and having police commissioners to replacing them

They say it's about being accountable, Well we already have elected people who should be held accountable their called MP's each area has them,

If your not happy with crime in your area then hold your MP to account,

No point voting him/her in for another bite of the cherry with a larger pay slip when they disowned responsibility the first time

I've seen better scams in my emails

Roy Off to bed time, night all

I did vote. Not because I think that we should have a PCC but because we are going to have one (per area) whatever we think, so it may as well be someome I think is decent, or more important, by voting try to ensure that someone I don't want, getting the job.

I got a polling card with no other leafletting, didn't hear anyone shouting at me from a car, didn't see any faces on lamposts. But ....
I am on the internet, from details on Polling Card I was able to find web-site and then register for an email when details for the "contenders list" would become available.

Around forty years ago we were told that low turnout in an election probably meant a Tory victory.
The other worry about a low turn out is that an extreamist could get elected if they and their buddies whipped up a bit of fervour in the local area.

There are some people with very bigotted views who I would hate to see as PCC
Now I am NOT saying that any of the seven candidates in my area were bigots. In fact I am fairly sure that they are not.
But this could actyally happen if we let it.

YES, I was annoyed that I got no off-line info from any of the candidates, however, my area is very large, each candidate would have had to leaflet hunderds of thousands of homes (I confess, I have no idea of the actual number)
The cost would have been prohibative. Three of them were independants, so leafletting was probably out of the question for them, especially after having to pay five thousand pounds to get there name on the list


If I had been given the chance of voting in favour or against PCC I would have voted against.


I just hope that the fellow who got in in my area does a good job.

Ms Pankhurst was demanding 'votes for women' NOT appointing someone to do a job, (that is already effectively being done anyway), in order to put in yet another layer of bureaucracy ( read that as jobs for the boys) that is unwanted by the public and the police themselves! And is just another example of the coalition's ( sic) inability to organise a p...fill in the phrase!

Who should I have voted for?

The Conservative businessman /farmer with no experience of policing or I suspect the needs of constituents in another county ( he does not live in this one)? ( No, In any case I would rather cut off my hand than vote Conservative)

the Labour candidate , nice enough chap, also lives in another county, who states categorically 'We ( labour) did not want this election", running in order to keep Conservatives out...and who I suspect would leave the job at the next election when the role will be abolished by the new labour government .

The independent, retired (aged 72) , experienced former policeman, who probably does much more for the community and keeping kids out of crime at the moment by his unpaid services than he will ever have the chance to do while he is 'deskbound'.

Choosing NOT to vote in an election (unasked for, unwanted, and poorly organised) to 'employ ' someone in a job for which they are quite likely to be totally unsuited and which you do not feel is necessary, is not apathy. It's a choice.

John,
In an earlier post of mine I said" I wasn't too idle"to have a look which I did but nothing for 2 candidates,No Profile or what they were going to do if they got the job.

Then all of a sudden yesterday 2 other people turned up as candidates plus no profile for those either.

People cannot vote for candidates that don't have a profile at leas.

obviously all the people on here have a computer - quite unnecessary to point that out John - but only today when it was too late anyway, has the link been put up - as you seem to know everything and seem so concerned and patronising about my idleness and apathy why did you not put up a thread giving the link days ago?

and while you're calling various people on here - me mostly, idle and apathetic, suggest you take a long look at yourself and wonder why you get up so many members noses on this site - not just on this thread but on every thread you enter

I had not realised this PCC policy has been enshrined in Tory manifestos since 2005 ie pre-Cameron. It was also part of the Coaltion agreement. So the Tories will claim we have voted for PCC's.

In Wales, two of the parties have boycotted these elections - Welsh Liberals and Plaid Cymru (Party of Wales).

Here are 41 results in alphabetical order:

WALES
Dyfed-Powys
• Christopher Salmon (Con)
• Turnout: 16.38%
Gwent
• Ian Johnston (Ind)
• Turnout: 13.97%
North Wales
• Winston Roddick (Ind)
• Turnout: 14.83%
South Wales
• Alun Michael (Lab)
• Turnout: 14.68%

ENGLAND
Avon and Somerset
• Sue Mountstevens (Ind)
• Turnout: 18.8%
Bedfordshire
• Oliver Martins (Lab)
• Turnout: 17.75%
Cambridgeshire
• Sir Graham Bright (Con)
• Turnout: 14.77%
Cheshire
• John Dwyer (Con)
• Turnout: 13.74%
Cleveland
• Barry Coppinger (Lab)
• Turnout: 14.73%
Cumbria
• Richard Rhodes (Con)
• Turnout: 15.63%
Derbyshire
• Alan Charles (Lab)
• Turnout: 14.35%
Dorset
• Martyn Underhill (Ind)
• Turnout: 16.34%
Durham
• Ron Hogg (Lab)
• Turnout: 14.41%
Essex
• Nicholas Alston (Con)
• Turnout: 12.81%
Gloucestershire
• Martin Surl (Ind)
• Turnout: 15.96%
Greater Manchester
• Tony Lloyd (Lab)
• Turnout: 13.59%
Hampshire
• Simon Hayes (Ind)
• Turnout: 14.53%
Hertfordshire
• David Lloyd (Con)
• Turnout: 14.10%
Humberside
• Matthew Grove (Con)
• Turnout: 19.15%
Kent
• Ann Barnes (Ind)
• Turnout: 15.99%
Lancashire
• Clive Grunshaw (Lab)
• Turnout: 15.05%
Leicestershire
• Clive Loader (Con)
• Turnout: 15.98%
Lincolnshire
• Alan Hardwick (Ind)
• Turnout: 15.28%
Merseyside
• Jane Kennedy (Lab)
• Turnout: 12.41%
Nottinghamshire
• Paddy Tipping (Lab)
• Turnout: 16.42%
North Yorkshire
• Julia Mulligan (Con)
• Turnout: 13.25%
Norfolk
• Stephen Bett (Ind)
• Turnout: 14.51%
Northamptonshire
• Adam Simmonds (Con)
• Turnout: 19.5%
Northumbria
• Vera Baird (Lab)
• Turnout: 16.45%
South Yorkshire
• Shaun Wright (Lab)
• Turnout: 14.53%
Staffordshire
• Matthew Ellis (Con)
• Turnout: 11.63%
Suffolk
• Tim Passmore (Con)
• Turnout: 15.41%
Surrey
• Kevin Hurley (Ind)
• Turnout: 15.36%
Sussex
• Katy Bourne (Con)
• Turnout: 15.33%
Thames Valley
• Anthony Stansfeld (Con)
• Turnout: 12.88%
Warwickshire
• Ron Ball (Ind)
• Turnout: 15.23
West Midlands
• Bob Jones (Lab)
• Turnout: 11.96%
West Mercia
• Bill Longmore (Ind)
• Turnout: 14.54%
West Yorkshire
• Mark Burns-Williamson (Lab)
• Turnout: 13.34%
Wiltshire
• Angus Macpherson (Con)
• Turnout: 15.3%

John you just answered my question before I asked it, which was 'was there a Plaid candidate?' I would have expected there to be if only to ensure a 'visible presence' in matters concerning the local electorate , lest their absence be put down to 'apathy' ;-)

Rose The whole election has just been so disappointing. A week ago I was very anti the whole thing, but a cursory glance of what the job is all about persuaded me it could be a step forward in accountable policing. In particular, getting the police away from points and paperwork and out and amongst us on the streets and in local police stations.

It should never have cost £5000 to enter and candidates should have ideally been independent of politics. But there are some potentially good PCC's - Winston Roddick in N Wales, for example, who is a clever old fox.

Labour have already set their stall out. Disband them - presumably to return to the old expensive and bureaucratic committee system or a variation of it :-( :-(

This is what it says about the role of the PCC

"To provide stronger and more transparent accountability of the police, PCCs will be elected by the public to hold chief constables and the force to account; effectively making the police answerable to the communities they serve.

PCCs will ensure community needs are met as effectively as possible, and will improve local relationships through building confidence and restoring trust. They will also work in partnership across a range of agencies at local and national level to ensure there is a unified approach to preventing and reducing crime.

PCCs will not be expected to run the police. The role of the PCC is to be the voice of the people and hold the police to account."

How can one PCC be "the voice of the people" for 1 million people over 3 counties? Is this not what local councillors are supposed to do...monitor the needs of their local people in terms of policing and bring those needs to the attention of the police and other relevant bodies?

"In particular, getting the police away from points and paperwork and out and amongst us on the streets and in local police stations. " How is a PCC going to do that?

No idea, Rose. But my simple plan would be to decide in Gwent, for example, how many police stations were required by the 600,000 population. They are closing them round here and it is difficult to know how far you have to travel to speak to someone and report a crime. I now have to travel 6 miles in a heavily populated area, which seems excessive.

I woulod have a major police station in every town of, say, more than 30,000 pop and a minor one in every smaller town of 10,000 pop.

I would insist that a major police station was staffed by at least 2 people at all times, one of whom was a fully trained and experienced police officer. And same for a minor police station, but perhaps only open from 3pm till 11pm.

This would require a major staff commitment, both in trems of numbers and hours of work. All other police officers, PCSO's would be attached to a local police station and would be out and about for at least 75% of their shift.

And HQ should only contain the Communications Room, the computer section and the Commissioner, the Chief Constable and staff who report directly to both.

I think we will all be amazed how many resources suddenly appear out of the central HQ building - all with lots of badges, lots of wages and no real accountability. ;-)

I have read this thread with interest although I wouldn't presume to comment on the elections. We have compulsory voting in Australia so I really can't say whether you should vote or not.

One comment truly amused me though. JohnLovesCocoa - "Very disappointed with the quality of most of the debate on this thread. Much below your usual standard, imho :-( :-( :-("

Really, John? My my......we can't have that can we? Come on you lot - step up the debate, please ;-)

With 15 Tory 13 Lab and 11 ind PCC's and the low turn out for voting, says to me people do not want our police to be a political body. To me its a copout by the home office if things go wrong they will blame the PCC's.Lets face it Ms May is as much use as a blow up dartboard.

Robert and Sue

At last, posts on this thread that are thougfhtful. Totally agree with Sue that, on a serious thread such as this (and see OP for tone) it is important that posters at least have read a little round the subject. Fun threads are fine, but......

And, one of Robert's points, Theresa May has so far appeared to be fire-proof. But to make such a mess of what is a central plank of Tory philosophy and antagonised so many people is surely a big big nail in her coffin.

In Wales, there are 23 counties. And four PCC's. Currently we have 23 Police Authorities in Wales - and I challenge anyone to name any of the County Councillors on their local police authority - each earning at least £12k with huge expenses. And to name one initiative they have started that has helped their local police force to help the public.

In Gwent, for example, we now have a very experienced police professional (Ian Johnston, Independent) who will represent people in 7 counties. And in North Wales, Winston Roddick, a Barrister who is firmly Independent. And Alun Michael (Labour) in S Wales will be no slouch in getting the police in all our counties of South Wales (Bridgend, Caerphilly, Rhondda Cynon Taf, Cardiff and Vale etc) to shape up to public perception of what police could and should be doing.

:-)

I think a lot of the independents will have got in on the second vote. In our area for example the Tory candidate got most votes, she beat Martin Surl. But then she didn't get 50% of the votes so people's second choices would come into play. Labout supporters aren't going to vote tory second choice so will have put independent. I guess that is how he got in. (we had four candidates.)

We had information on TV local, in the local press and via fliers through the door and Gloucestershire is a very large area.

Please keep this as a debate on the system and don't reduce it to a back biting thread. I am going out so will not be able to keep an eye on it. Play nicely people please. Like the nice people you all are :-D

John, as you are "Very disappointed with the quality of most of the debate on this thread." I suggest that maybe this is not the chat board for you.

I had not realised that this new idea of one Police Commissioner to replace this heavy and expensive bureaucracy of local police authorities had been hammered out by the Tories 10 years ago and had been a central plank of their philosophy ever since.

And the arguments for it are apparently overwhelming. And the Lib Dems took it on board and were happy for it to be part of the Coalition Agreement which seemed the best way forward after last indecisive General Election.

I wonder if Theresa May actually believed that most people fully understood what she was doing and that most were totally supportive :-S :-S

Chief Constables will now be required to spend 100% of their time on resource management. There will be little opportunity for men like Brunstrom (N Wales) and Chris Fox (Northants, ACPO) to raise their unelected political heads above the parapet. ;-)

Good points have been raised in no particular order

- no leafleting
- The candidates should have gone out of their way to engage the electorate
- Politicising the Police

Yes, most of us here are good researchers and could if we choose have found out a bit more about a candidate, but can the same be said for the majority of the population, even those with computer access? The Candidates should have realised that most of the electorate is RE-active, not PRO-active.
How many of the non-voters did so since, as far as they are concerned, a Police Commissioner has no impact on their lives?

Is there a ‘None of the Above’ party? If not, who is interested in forming one? The only manifesto statement would be the promise to resign at the earliest opportunity if elected. Who knows? The candidate might even keep their deposit and it would certainly give the Establishment a wake-up call.

As it happens, both of us did vote, simply because we didn’t want a political party nominee. The Independent who won (on the second count v the Conservative) had been the Chairman of the Police Authority. She put £50,000 of her own money (apparently inherited) into her campaign. Not my first choice, but that’s as democratic a result as the system would allow.

AnninGlos - this was an excellent thread until John got personal once again - the first one to do that if you read back - calling me idle and apathetic