General Chat

Agree William, that is why I have always condemned the axing of the old secondary modern and technical colleges.

Edit:

Uggers I know that there will always be parents who abuse their children, that will happen whether or not the current childrens' rights are revoked.

I am only speaking from a parents standpoint, my children were punished according to the severity of their naughtiness. If one of them was found to be acting like a thug in public I would have been glad that a PC had dragged them home. The point would have been made loud and clear.

Sue

Rose and Cat, it won't surprise you but I do agree with you both:) I wouldn't have reported that post, Rose but I understand your reasons.

Sue, I agree with almost all of that - a couple of exceptions though - "Allow parents to chastise their children in the way they see fit" ? Surely there have to be some guidelines - just for an example one junior school friend of mine had a dad who was basically a sadistic bastard but acted to his own lights - smacking is one thing and beating is another.

The other thing I feel uneasy about is allowing police to give people a "clip around the ear" - the police clearly need more powers than they have now, few would disagree but I'm old enough to remember how far a "clip around the ear" could lead and I wouldn't like to go back to then.

Well Sue,you do touch on some important issues here.I'm sorry to say that the educational policies and ethos of the last twenty years or so.The headlong rush to concentrate on purely academia has been an absolute disaster.Equal priority must be given to vocational traning to equip those who are not academically suited,and to enable them to live useful lives.

Back to basics:

Get the children to attend school, apply appropriate penalties to the whole family if they do not comply.
Allow teaching staff to restrain children who are disrupting classes and physically attacking their fellow pupils.
Allow policemen to give a clip around the ear and drag the oik back to his/her house and tell the parents, in no uncertain terms, if they are picked up again they will be charged with a disorder offense.
Allow parents to chastise their children in the way they see fit.
Ensure that children leave school having attained qualifications in the basic requirements to obtain employment. If they fail, they stay on for a further year until they damn well equip themselves with something useful.
Enforce the law re carrying weapons in public - incarcerate them.
Have the so-called celebrities to condemn this violence but at the same time stop getting involved in fights themselves *fat chance*.

All the above in no particular order or sense, just my musings.

Sue

I accept that you did not mean to cause any offence Rita,
.

I DID genuinely find it offensive, and thought reporting it to GR left it to them to decide whether it was or was not ( and also know that you are not always around after posting to edit if asked)

I am aware we hold opposite views on most things concerning immigration etc...

No personal offence was meant, and I will remove my own posts as you have done if you wish?

Well said Rita.

Cat, I agree there are problems, severe problems of deprivation in some areas, and huge stigma attached to it, but what happens. We try to police these estates, and a war ensues between police and residents, yet they moan about lawlessness. That is why authorities have given up on them, because these are often people who reject practical help, improvements are damaged almost as soon as they are made, nobody has any respect for their own backyard, let alone the property of others. The drug and gang culture has taken over and police are powerless to do anything.

Our laws need to be enforced properly, and we need to get rid of all this human rights claptrap that comes down on the side of the criminal and leaves the victim of crime isolated and alienated.

TW, I know a few kids on this estate who have this attitude wrt respect. Tbh, I don't think this estate is that bad. Yes, there are drugs around but it's nowhere near as bad as some of the 'sink' estates that are classed as no go areas.

There are some out there though who don't get listened to, are condemned because they were born and bred on the 'sink' estates. These places have usually been given up on by the authorities and left to their own devices.

My point being that not all are listened to. Again I don't excuse or condone the actions of any of the people rioting. I'm simply saying there is no one size fits all excuse/reason for these riots.

Another link for you which includes an aspiring social worker and a millionaires daughter.

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16047959

I'm trying to be as understanding of what people are saying here as I can.It may be difficult for people who live an ordered framework in their lives,who not necesarrily live in shall we say "suburban comfort" to understand that this underclass that I hinted at,whether we like it or not,are not going away.

Of course no one will welcome the scenes we have seen the last few days.To simply condemn though without looking as I say examining the underlying reasons for them is simply to invite yet more trouble in the future.

Of course let me make it clear people from my council estate didn't riot,lets say in post war years.They had useful jobs to look forward to in local industries like Mines,brickyards etc.Jobs I know that certain sections in society looked down their noses at.

We are now living though I recognise in a post industrial age.We need answers though what happens to the people who are left behind.

I heard a young girl on BBC News this morning,,a school teaching assistant who lives on a Peckham Housing Estate.She invited Cameron and Johnson too come and live there.She said in just one week they will be turning to drink drugs and whatever else to relieve the misery of their lives.

Cat, there are plenty of youth workers out there who say these kids are not interested, they would rather be lurking on street corners doing nothing, that they are unable to connect with them. Yet it's those same kids who bemoan the fact they have no voice. Clearly they are not talking, and nobody will listen until you do. That's what I meant by that.

Listenign to a lot of these kids, they feel they are entitled to respect without earning it. I saw a 14 year old saying just that. 'You want respect, well you won't get it until you respect me'. How do you deal with that?

And again I say, look at who is in court for the looting...they are not these deprived inner city kids in the main, they are people with jobs, education, prospects...and now, ruined careers, with only themselves to blame.

Teresa ...and yes I AM passionate about this, because I do not wish the country I live in to slide towards the bigots and racists point of view in the wake of these riots,. which so many people less intelligent than yourself are happy to label as racially motivated, 'blame it on the black guy, the immigrant etc etc '....

A woman round here was told to 'go back to where she came from' while her car was trashed by 'copycat' thugs ... bleating out the whole 'us and them' line.

When the EDL use the riots as an added 'excuse' to trash my local town on Saturday as they planned to do weeks before the riots...when the BNP call them "black riots" ...I will be PASSIONATE about that too...much good may it do me in the face of irredeemable ignorance.

We are all passionat about this Rose, this is our country, and it's being presented to the rest of the world in a very negative light at the moment, but while exploring what may be the underlying cause, we are all entitled to our view, whether others like it or not.

I dont' always agree with Rita, though I can more often than not see where she is coming from, but she is 'old school' and will say it as it is and sod PC. Rita is as entitled to her view as much as anyone else, that is how debate, true debate is conducted which includes views that some may find offensive. As long as it is not inciting further violence I don't see anything wrong in voicing an opinion.

FYI I don't happen to agree with the views on immigrants either, most poeple are 2nd or third generation, therefore as british as the rest of us, and equally as proud of our country, and ashamed of the events of this week.

And I will also say, before any further stuff is said blaming immigrants, many of the people brandishing brooms this week were also immigrants.

The riots were criminality, nothing more nothing less.

No, it's not just those on benefits who are doing it but there isn't just one reason for doing it either. I suspect if you ask different people they'll each come up with a different reason.

There is a tendency towards a sheep mentality amongst some human beings. One person says/starts something, a second and/or third agrees/follows then the rest join in, stupid yes, unacceptable, definitely, but it happens. This is how the 'angry mob' comes about, how vigilante groups form.

"Some suggest it's because these kids have no voice, well time they started talking, nobody listens to silence."

I found this interesting. How do you know they haven't been talking and simply been ignored by those in authority?

I'm not placing blame btw, many of these 'agencies' (for want of a better word) are under resourced/understaffed and cannot cope with the numbers of people need their help.

I'm not, incidentally, excusing anything but I did find the article in the Independent interesting, especially the last paragraph.

I wasn't aware I was trying "to help" anyone Teresa? or that I was "steamed up" ...being passionate about something is NOT the same as being steamed up. as I'm sure you recognise.

I reported a post I found extremely offensive. end of.

Rose, I really think you need to calm down, getting steamed up isn't going to help anyone is it?

There are a multitude of reasons being bandied about for these riots. Some have suggested it's race, though it's clearly not. Some suggest it's because these kids have no voice, well time they started talking, nobody listens to silence. Some say its because they have no opportunity, no jobs, no further education, well take a look at who's been in court so far, trainee nurse, teacher, youth worker...yes people with jobs, prospects, education. Some say these kids are angry....well sorry, but society is angrier now.

The truth is, there IS no underlying reason for the looting, it is just greed, selfishness and sheer criminality. Nothing else. It is what it is. Prime example is the little *&^@*(&( in Manchester, 'It's against the police innit, its a freedom thing, we're free to do what we want today, and the police can't do nuffing!'

Oh yeah? Watch them. :-(

Well, just heard that one of the scum being charged drove up from Winchester with tools for the sole purpose of looting!!!!!
There are poor people in Winchester, amongs the very wealthy - but he obviously wasn't a member of the'underclass' - he had tools, a car, and could afford the fuel!!!

Just a selfish 'chancer', with no thought for anyone else but himself and his greed.

The glory of hearing the morons bleating about why they did what they did on the radio, is that I have absolutely no idea of their race, colour and, in a couple of cases - their sex :-D

Muffy, if Rita feels her opinion is valid she can repost it, or GR will if they consider it appropriate...

Just because someone pays to post here does not entitle them to post anything and everything they choose without any shred of evidence does it? or offend another member with that view ...that is what the T & Cs are there for...and I used the facilty that I PAY for also!

That's a bit high handed Rose if you don't mind me saying so.

Other members have the perfect right to read what Rita had to say and make their own decisions about her views.

You have been given the opportunity to give the counter view at the same time as you stifled hers.

Your choice of course...but Rita is also a paying member of these boards..seems a bit unfair to me that she isn't being given the chance to speak her mind because her views are unpopular.

Anyway...that's my two pennarth..Off to watch the daily politics.....

Everyone is entitled to their opinion?

Even if that opinion is spouting racism or some form of bigotry?


I thought racism was illegal.

Well said Rose.

A couple of links for you, if you can be bothered to read/listen to them, your choice.

The first mentions the underlying reasons William mentioned.

The second is the father of one of the men killed in Birmingham that Ann has mentioned.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/camila-batmanghelidjh-caring-costs-ndash-but-so-do-riots-2333991.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMxwrrLFxxo

As for community, well it rejected/ostracised many of what some call the underclass years ago. Try reading the first link, if you can be bothered, with an open mind.

Well said, Rose.

It will be a sad day when GR loses your voice, even less reason now for my occasional visits.

Gwynne
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