General Chat

When I used to organize demonstrations -- at a particularly major one, the first ever counter-summit held to what was then the G7 summit -- we took the position that it was the job of the police, not us, to police the demonstration.

We are there voicing our opinions and calling on our governments to make the policies and laws we believe should be made. That is our right (and in fact, we get parade permits here when we're going to be using the streets), and I consider it my moral and demoratic duty. We are not there to cause property damage or personal injury.

I have demonstrated many times. From the war on Vietnam to the war on Iraq. About wars, reproductive choice, government economic policies. And campus issues.

(And in reference to something mentioned in this thread -- the first time I went to a Vietnam War demonstration, I was 15 ... my mother showed up just as it was starting, and told me my father said I must go home ... then she started chatting with a cop !! ... I slipped away and started walking off with the demonstrators; there weren't very many of us ... she came after me, toting my baby sister, and hauled me back to the car ... and a couple of years later, at a "women's lib" meeting back in that town after I'd left home, somebody looked at me and said: "Aren't you the one whose mother made her go home from that demonstration?" The person who remembered me was a Maoist ... she's now an Anglican priest, and she and my old anti-Zionist Jewish friend, now her husband, are still my good friends. ;) )

Anyhow. Back during that summit, we liaised with the police before and during the demo. We particularly wanted to make sure there was no trouble with a small outfit called CPCML. They infiltrated other people's demonstrations and tried to take over. No violence, just the loudest voices you've ever heard.

So Sgt Larry, the Mountie we were meeting with, leaned back at the end of our meeting and put his cowboy boots up on his desk, and said: CPCML - who are those people, anyway?? And I couldn't resist. I said: Why, we always thought they were you people!

People peacefully demonstrating to convey their views to their government are not responsible for what anyone else does. They do not have the power or authority to stop anyone from trashing cars or throwing things or breaking windows. That is the job of the police.

And no one should be intimidated into not exercising that right because of the possibility of someone else showing up to cause trouble.

Rita lectures at university don't take place 9am to 4.30pm Monday to Friday. Degrees tend to have 12/15 hours of lectures a week and then students work by themselves/with friends the rest of the time doing essays/presentations/exams etc the rest of the time. That time can take place whenever they wish.

A lot of the protesters causing trouble not peacefully protesting were actually school children there 'for a laugh'. And the woman who took the wheel of the abandoned police riot van (abandoned because the 'children' were threatening to overturn it, was a 23 year old unemployed woman who gave her name to the paper. The Uni students who were peacefully protesting were annoyed that it had all been 'ruined' for them. So they said. You would think that intelligent young people would have read what happened before and would have expected it to be 'ruined' for them. There is a photo of a young school girl wearing a riot helmet stolen from the van.

Island, if that lot on thereare Babies,( The size of them ) Pity the poor Midwife who had to deliver them,and the mother who gave birh to them.( Must have been very painful ) Almost like the "Born again Christians" **M**.PMSL.:o)>

A few of them are going to start life with a Criminal Record if they are not careful

I think that those found guilty of criminal damage should be thrown out of uni & told to pay back their student loan in full within 24hrs. Or off to jail they go.

Penfold

Rita, I do hope you'll listen to some of the things that have been said.

People who wear facemasks to demonstrations are NOT there to protest, or to voice their opinions.

They are there to cause damage to property and to provoke the authorities into taking action against them, that will (they hope) result in more problems, and in the police being blamed for them.

If somebody wearing black clothing and a facemask turned up at your Christmas nativity play and started throwing chairs through the church windows, would it be your fault? Even if they *were* a member of your congregation?

No more is it the fault of the students and student organizations who organize protests against government policies -- protesting being an absolute right and an important feature of a free and democratic society -- if other people, or even other students, use those demonstrations as a chance to cause damage.

I can only repeat again that people are becoming increasingly angry at the policies of this wretched government.I take comfort though from the fact that youngsters in this country are saying to the government;This far and no further,think again!

Regards
William Russell Jones.

We had protesters outside where I work today. It was lunchtime.
They 'stormed' the building - well a couple got inside - wherepon a couple were seen by their mums who were having lunch in the cafe just inside the door, who waved, and told them to get back to college before the end of lunch. The students turned tail and went!!! LOL

How embarrassing!!!

Merseyside students march over rise in tuition fees


More than 2,000 students from across Merseyside have staged a protest in Liverpool against a rise in university tuition fees and education budget cuts.

Students from Liverpool's universities and prospective students from colleges and schools gathered at the Liverpool Guild of Students at 1100 GMT.

They marched to Liverpool Town Hall, where they were addressed by Labour councillor Nick Small.

Some students later staged a sit-down protest at the top of Bold Street.

The group of about 300 people blocked three major city centre roads to traffic - Bold Street, Berry Street and Renshaw Street.

Sit-down protests were earlier staged at Lime Street station and outside the town hall.

Students chanted "No ifs, no buts, no to education cuts" as they marched through the city.

There was a heavy police presence, with officers being helped by student stewards to help ensure a peaceful protest.

The action is part of a day of protests taking place across the country.

It follows a protest in London two weeks ago, when the Conservative Party's offices were badly damaged.

The government plans to increase tuition fees at English universities to up to £9,000.

'Get message across'

Public funding for university teaching budgets would also be reduced for many subjects.

The plans have been backed by Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg, whose party had pledged to vote against a rise in fees in the run-up to the general election.

Mr Clegg has urged students to examine the government's proposals before taking to the streets.

But Lewis Coyne, one of the organisers of the Liverpool march, said: "It is important to get the message across that we aren't happy about what they are doing to the education budget and the rise in fees."

About 4,000 people have joined a Facebook group about the protest, he said.

He said he had hoped the protest would be peaceful, unlike the previous demonstrations in London.

"The overwhelming consensus among students is that it was a negative thing and the protests were seen in a negative light because of the violence," he said.

A spokeswoman for Merseyside Police said officers had been "committed to facilitating a peaceful protest".

She said officers had contacted secondary headteachers across the region asking them to "ensure that their pupils are aware of any potential consequences of them leaving school to attend the demonstrations".

They had also liaised with several groups involved in the protest.

"Officers will not tolerate criminal behaviour, disorder or anti-social behaviour during any demonstrations or within Merseyside," she added

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-11827446

Of course the government doesn't have any money of its own. It has my money, and the money of everyone else who contributes via the tax system. shame that my vote counts for zilch. As do the votes of most people. Governments are elected, or otherwise, on the "strength" of a few marginal seats.

I don't know how old you are, Merlin, but accusing Brown of "selling off the family silver" is a bit naive.

I remember Margaret Thatcher's radical policy of privatisation. Parts of Britain's steel industry and railway network, and infrastructure from British Gas to the National Bus Company, were sold off in one of the biggest national sales in living memory.

Just what we needed. I only have to say Tata to Corus to make my point.

Sue x

' "The Government" doea not have any money of it's own-only what it takes from the rest of "us" '

Which would, of course, be because our governments are us.

Did we think they were aliens from outer space who have colonized our countries?


' Where are the students suggesting the money for their education should be coming from ? '

Maybe from the same place that the money for nuclear submarines and bullets and bombs, and everything else governments spend money on, comes from: taxes. The money that 'we' in each country decide to pay into the common pool, to be spent on things to benefit the country.

People who obtain post-secondary educations generally end up paying quite a lot of taxes over their lifetimes, so it seems like not a bad investment by government, to me.

Probably from the same place I stated before."The Tooth Fairy"**M**.Mind If they decided to become Airline Pilots,they would really have a moan.Costs about £130.000 to £140.000.to train and it has to be paid by you, no goverment grants,and when trained can only expect around £24./26.000 to start with .the Big money comes much later,with experience. **M**.

I am confused !

"The Government" doea not have any money of it's own-only what it takes from the rest of "us"

Where are the students suggesting the money for their education should be coming from ?

I suppose that if? we still had our Gold Reserves,(A majority of this was sold off by Brown in the Sale of the Century ) we would have been able to withstand the storm.( This was done before the Bankers ( Spelt with a W )went bust. and it might have helped if Brown had,nt Plundered the Pension Schemes,( Wonder what he did with the money) and people remembered this Government is only recent and have inherited this mess.Which has got to be cleared up.and as usual,The Taxpayer picks up the Bill. While the old Government and its followers Like Ostriches ,Stick their heads in the sand and pretend it never happened.I think "Not Me Gov" is their Credo and are in denial.Its time they saw the light and realised that meybe even our grandchildrens children will be paying off this debt long after we,ve gone unless its sorted now.they don,deserve that.**M**

Can I just say about Ruskin, it may be the one the unionists support, but that is with good reason...the WEA made university open to those who came from a working class background as mature students. Ruskin is known for this.

"Ruskin College is an adult residential college based in Oxford that specialises in providing educational opportunities for adults with few or no qualifications. We aim to recruit and develop those many adults who want a 'second chance' in education."

Those grabbing that 'second chance' are often from the areas of employment where a union was an essential for support (historically) ...like the miners of the SW valleys. I know a number of people who went to Ruskin from Coleg H in Wales, (for mature students).

Sue - Clegg was (is) a politician with numerous advisors, stating what he stated is no excuse if he didn't believe it!

Ans your point is what, Chris?

From what I read, it was Black Bloc types who broke into the building, and a lot of young students thought "ooh, what the heck, we'll go in too!"

They are kids, remember.

And it's not that *no* Black Bloc types are students. ;)

It's that the demostration was legitimate, organized by people who had no intention of vandalizing, and attended by many, many people who did not vandalize. The vandals prey on events like that to do their work.

Believe me, I've been there.

Stood around on the street about 5 years ago watching a standoff between people throwing bits of junk at riot police lined up to keep us away from where George Bush was at his luncheon. The rest of us just looked on, and occasionally somebody told the ones in the front line to stop throwing things. Apparently when we wandered off for lunch ourselves, between events, there was an altercation between those few people and the riot police.

The situation in Toronto this summer was far different. There were Black Bloc troops from all around the continent, and they had their actions planned like a military campaign. Set a car on fire in one place, then go trash storefronts in another -- they carry backpacks with a change of clothes, so they can doff their black outfits and masks and look normal. A couple of them in Toronto were caught emerging from a sewer hole where they had stowed their stuff.

It does seem the vandalism etc was a little spread around in London, and some might even have happened without the Black Bloc types, but these days most people engaged in legitimate protest are careful to distance themselves from them. Some of these students may have been a little naive. And they were a very small minority anyway.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/
ALeqM5hCxhbR0IzwaN59CCVvEhrpUp8PFw?docId=B2925541289584394A000000

Up to 50 demonstrators smashed windows, discharged fire extinguishers and threw debris from the roof of the building. But hundreds of others gathered in a forecourt below booed the culprit and shouted to others to stop damaging the building and throwing missiles.

Earlier on Friday the Met said that 10 of the 54 people arrested during sprawling outbreaks of disorder were aged under 18.

A spokesman said most of the others were students, most aged between 18 and 26, and including 33 men and 21 women.

Not quite, though, Maggie

He said that if he'd had any idea of the disastrous state of the economy he'd inherit, he would never have made such promises.

Well, pardon me, I'm not a wise politician, but even I could see this one coming.

Banks piling up toxic debt, and then selling same toxic debt to each other at vastly inflated prices . Ocean Finance on every second advert at £'000s a minute. It was blatantly obvious that the bubble had to burst. And if little-old-me could have seen it coming, I wonder why Clegg couldn't? Maybe because he was so desperate for a bit of power....

Sue x