General Chat

Rita a lot of today's students work while at university, they too pay their way. The students aren't asking for a 'free ride' they are simply protesting against tuition fees practically trebling.

I think Cameron gave the game away yesterday when he spoke of the supposed benefits that would accrue if everything was market driven.

It gives the lie to those who would claim that difficult choices are being made due to the countries finances.Cameron and Osborne actually believe in what they are doing.

We have been here before though through the Thatcher years,I see little evidence to the contrary that the market zealots will fail again.They actually want a return to the old days where their power and privilege was supreme.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

"do they really think the public in London will tolerate this type of thing?
Hitler tried it and he didnt get away with it.."

Rita, that is simply disgusting. I hope you're ashamed.

What we have seen by this evenings vote is that the priveleged few like Cameron,Osborne and Clegg will ultimately continue to have undue influence over our lives.

This is ultimately an issue of opportunity for all.It seems the ruling elite are in no mood to relax their grip on power.

I want the same life chances for the kids on the council estate where I live as for the parasites who go to Eton and Harrow.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

Partly in reply to Uggers, I think what bothers me more than the general principal of loans being paid back at the rates I mentioned, is this... and i haven't worked out a coherent argument lol as I've just got in so thinking as I type ;)...

If the fee is 'uncapped' universities will be free to charge 'up to £9000, quoting from the Guardian

"Universities that are oversubscribed and highly ranked in league tables are likely to charge £9,000; others may think they would struggle to convince students to apply for their courses if they charge the full amount."

I fear this may lead to return to a two-tier situation where the 'best' universities charging the full £9k become more 'exclusive', that students ( and their parents) from poorer and middleclass homes ( who don't qualify for benefits) will once again see 'Oxbridge' as unattainable and only those students whose parents...ie well off.. can afford to pay those fees will apply.

That may be more a matter of perception than actual situation...but if you looked at a Uni charging 3k and one charging 9k you might 'settle' for the cheaper option so as not to leave with a huge debt...when really you should go all out for a 'better' uni which stretches you a bit more but may lead to much better prospects ultimately.

not sure I've explained this well...anyone know what I mean ? lol

xx

Uggers I suspect that the majority of people on less than £21,000 p.a. haven't been to university so won't have a debt to pay off as well as pay a mortgage. Of course there will be exceptions to this, there always are.

Rita you seem to be confused about tuition fees and people working/paying their way through uni.

Today's students *are*, as Gwynne says, marching for the next generation and not themselves. Today's students will *not* pay the rise in tuition fees (if the government do go ahead). The new higher tuition fees will only apply to new students, not the current ones, believe it or not that's a fact.

"My sister her three children and her daughters husband and many others in my family went to universities all worked their way through and didnt expect something for nothing."

Out of curiosity how many of your relatives paid tuition fees?

Each student who goes to university is charged £x,000 per year for their degree. This can be paid for by their parents (assuming their parents are both willing and able to afford it). For some/most students they will have to take out a loan to pay for these fees. This loan, along with any maintenance loans they are able to take out, which is dependent on their parent's income, have to be paid back when they get a job, after graduating.

The jobs that some/most students do while at university are to pay their living expenses, things like rent, food, household bills etc.

My gdau graduated 2 years ago. At uni she had a job working in the Uni bar (she had done bar work whilst in Sixth Form). In the vacations, you name it she did it, worked in office, in a golf shop during day, straight from that to an evening shift on a packing line, baby sitting. And we paid for all her books which as history student she required many.

We'll have to disagree, Gwynne :)

I would be surprised if the increase in tuition fees - given that it goes ahead - puts people off going because of future debts. I don't think many of us think like that at 18 and I can't see that the figures I have read are going to be any great burden to anyone. I honestly think this thing about poorer people being put off going to university is a fallacy. Or maybe a smokescreen. I really don't get the thing about only the rich affording the best education. If the figures Rose quotes are correct, I really can't see that's a harship for anyone -

"Repayment example one: Jane

Jane pays her Income Tax on her wages through Pay As You Earn (PAYE). She earns £1,500 a month - £250 over the repayment threshold of £1,250 per month.

•Jane's repayments will be nine per cent of £250: £22 a month"

I'm not sure what age your thinking of at which people start getting mortgages because for many people I know, it's not happening in their thirties never mind in their twenties.

Rita, Gwynne is right about students working - I don't know any who don't have part-time jobs.

My daughter graduated last year.Throughout the whole of her university education she worked 2 part time jobs to support herself and continued to work in low paid jobs after graduating while applying for hundreds of jobs all to no avail.
Totally fed up and with huge debt she decided earlier this year to take a 12 month working visa to Australia.
Within 3 days of landing she had a job only working in a little italian but on much better pay than you would get here for the same work.Her bosses now want to sponsor her for 2 years, after which she will get permanent residency and be able to get a well paid job with her forensic science degree, and be able to afford to pay back her debt to this country.I wonder how many more will go to other country's that offer better oppurtunities
There are many hard working students who have to support themselves
As much as I miss her I don't blame her not wanting to come back here.
I worry after going through it all with one daughter how much harder it is going to be when my youngest who is very talented go's to Uni.
I am not well off but I will do all I can to support my youngest through her education, whatever it takes because I feel it is important that all are given the opportunity to attend university no matter what their background is.There is good and bad in all wherever you go in the world, so please lets not forget that not all students are drifters or drop outs some have real talent,drive, determination and passion and are very hard working students :-)
Regards Kat

Uggers, if people from poorer backgrounds don't apply to universities then they can't be penalised, they may be forced to offer burseries, perhaps.

I agree with you about people drifting to university in times passed, which is why I think we should up the grades required to get there but I firmly believe that we should support them. Not all graduates are highly paid, some go into vocational work - like nurses, social workers and teachers. At a time when others their age would be thinking about mortgages they won't be able to because they will be paying off the loans, no matter how favourable the rate - a debt is a debt.


I do believe that money should be made available for young people to set up businesses, the Prince's Trust do a fantastic job but more can be done.

Rita, the way we are heading only the rich will be able to afford the best education. Many students are prepared to work. All the ones I know have part time jobs to support themselves, and don't have much trouble finding jobs because they are prepared to accept low pay, unlike the feckless adults who are better off on benefits sand turn their noses up at bar work or supermarket work.

The students marching now are marching for the next generation of students, not for themselves. By the time the changes come in they will have graduated. Many marching, like my son, graduated years ago but want everyone with the academic ability to have access to university at a price they can afford.

Gwynne

If perhaps the main things taught at Universities are worthwhile ones instead of a lot of courses which really do not need to be taught at Universities,I/e Collages.perhaps so many people would not owe so much,also to be in the Uni full time .there is another factor, if it is free in Scotland and Wales, why not here, Perhaps we give too much of our Taxes to those Countries,if so, don,t allocate so much to themand use the money here.**M**.

According to the National Audit Office, 100,000 UK students drop out of university after the 1st year. 1 in 4 school leavers believe that going to university is a waste of time, mainly because of the large debt that they will accrue.

Gwynne, education is a right but we're talking about additional education for those over the age of 18. Again, I'm no expert on the changes but I thought there would be penalties for universities not taking people from poorer backgrounds?

I have known too many people who drift into university because their friends go or because it's become the norm, without being driven by passion for learning or because they want to build a career on it. Why should they get a loan on such wonderful terms? Why not lend money to those who want to start up businesses on those terms at 18 or 20 or to those who begin families young? *All* have their place in building society, not just those who choose to enter further education.

I would far rather my taxes went into supporting all the council run services that are being cut than supporting either students or those who have never worked in their lives.

Chaotic, what about those who have never earned above £21,000 in our working lives? Who is helping us pay our rent and mortgages??? Have you actually looked at the amounts and interest levels that people would be paying their loans back at cos I would be delighted to borrow money for such a wonderful thing as university education and pay it back at that rate.

PS

I would far rather my taxes supported young people trying to make something of their lives than the 1.6 million adults who have never worked in their lives.

Gwynne

Those with parents who have money will still go to university because the parents will help out.

The "best" universities will be charging higher fees than the others and those from less well off backgrounds will be priced out of the market altogether, while others opt for the ones with cheaper fees. Oxford and Cambridge will probably become the playground of ex-public school types as they used to be. I don't believe that should happen.

The thought of taking on these huge debts is very daunting when you are only 18, especially if you hope one day to buy a home and have a family.


I believe that education is a right not a privilege and that our most talented young people should be nurtured. My solution would be to close some universities and up the A level grades needed to get to university and then support those who attain them.

Gwynne

There are some students who will have to work full time whilst putting themselves through university and pay tuition fees on top of it. It's all very well saying they don't have to pay until earning £21,000 but they also have to save a substantial amount for a deposit on a house, that's if they can actually afford the mortgage on a house (dependent on where in the country they live). The prices of houses nowadays means that many people can't afford to buy even on say £25,000 p.a., private rent is ridiculous, imo, and there's a shortage of social housing. So anyone leaving university will automatically be £x,000 in debt, unless of course mummy & daddy can and will pay the fees and that's before they take into account living expenses.

Personally I think they should back date this so that anyone who has been to university and is earning in excess of £21,000 has to pay, say £6,000 p.a., back to cover the cost of their courses. After all, if today's students have to pay, because education, is a privilege why should former students not have to pay as well.

I wish people would stop whining about an increase to tuition fees. Most of us are going to suffer in some ways because of the financial mess we're in and university education is a bonus not a necessity or a god given right.

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding it, students won't have to pay their tuition fees back until after they are earning over 21 grand, on a low level interest anyway.

Some of us put ourselves through university whilst working full time and didn't have the opportunity to whinge about tuition fees. There are a lot greater injustices in the world people should be demonstrating about in my opinion.

if the fees go up
the unemployment figures will go up to

Visit www.factsonfees.com for the facts on student fees

if theres no violence i support them if there is i don't

i cannot condone innocent people been hurt