General Chat

Perhaps, Newbs, you would not try to distort things I said, and say things that make it appear I said something I didn't say.

I was referring specifically to things Rita persistently says about how men fought wars to give us freedom of speech, etc.

Many people have done many things, sometimes at considerable risk to themselves, to give us freedom of speech, etc.

What any war may or may not have been fought for, and why anyone may have fought in a war, has pretty much nothing to do with anything here -- except that the students in question are exercising the freedom of speech that men allegedly fought in wars for.

As I said, I completely fail to see how it makes any sense to carry on about men fighting for freedom of speech, and then condemn people for exercising it. Or say they should expect to get beaten up by police if they do.

That's what *I* was saying.

One stupid little spoiled brat decided to swing from the Union Flag that was hanging from the Cenotaph.
This stupid brat is the son of a millionaire, he is also a history student who apparently later stated ' I had no idea what the Cenotaph stood for'

This brat 70 years ago would have been fighting for this flag .
He will hopefully remember with respect from now on, the people, many his age, who thought this countrys freedom was worth fighting for and lost their lives defending that belief .
It is not worshiping at the feet of men who fight in wars it is giving respect where respect is due.

Why do I "pick on" you, Rita?

I don't. I find many of the things you say grossly awful, and I say so.

You haven't answered anything I asked before, so there's little point asking anything else.

But once again ...

"They are entittled to freedom of speech which they would not have had if it had not been for the men wh'os memorial statue they defaced.
So that means they can go on the rampage and do all this damage. is that what you would call freedom of speech ?"

Who are THEY?

Two people peed on the Winston Churchill statue, I believe. And not everyone worships Winston Churchill in the first place.

Why would you ask me whether I call causing property damage freedom of speech?

I referred to the report here (from an eye-witness) of someone being pulled from a wheelchair. That person was at the demonstration to protest government policies, not to cause property damage -- I assume, since it's hard to do that from a wheelchair.

And I just get so tired of all this blabber about men fighting in wars to give me freedom of speech.

Men fight in wars for lots of reasons. And a whole lot more people are to thank for my freedom of speech, and all the other rights and freedoms we all have, than men who fight in wars.

In any event, what earthly good does it do to worship at the feet of men who fight in wars, for all the rights and freedoms they allegedly gave us, if we don't use those rights and freedoms when they're needed??

What earthly point is there in blabbering on about men fighting in wars to give us rights and freedoms, and then saying that people who exercise them, to protest and try to change government policies, should expect to get beaten up by cops?

Did some of these men fight in wars so that university tuition fees could be priced out of reach of ordinary people, by the way?

The thing is, those who wont get financial help are those such as my son whose family earnings are not low enough for help, but not
high enough to be classed as better off.

The rich get a chance, the poor get help, so what of the gifted & clever kids in between. As always, its miss out or struggle to pay for what some get for free.- sorry but it just irks me.

My o.h.'s son went to Uni, graduated in 2004 and owed quite a lot of money which had to be paid off, even tho he got some local grant towards things and his mother claimed she was a single parent and he got some help.
I can understand the annoyance of the people who feel betrayed by Clegg and there aren't just students who feel upset at the way the government is charging in and changing things so I am sure we will have further troubles to watch when all these people end up out of work due to cuts but then are told they have to take just any job - what jobs? - or lose benefit.
I saw some youngsters with bandanas across their faces but were still easily recognisable, saying that they were from council estates where they might have been able to go to uni before but now wouldn't be able to afford to so might end up getting into bother on the streets instead with no jobs available to them.
Will there be enough future jobs for graduates even if they can bear the cost and do their degrees?
I was impressed at some of the young people spoken to who were polite but firm and very articulate and informed.
I think it's going to be a case of suck it and see and time will tell whether the new rules work, seems there is provision for poorer families to get help with the costs.

Lizx

My son 15 wants to go to uni after he does college. All of this has worried me to death, 3 grand to find per year is bad enough let alone.9 grand. It also worried me him taking out a loan.

But hubby has explained to me, that they can pay back this lone only IF they earn over £21000 once they get a job. Even then they will only pay back around £7.50 a month, even if it is for 30 years its such a small amount it wont be missed.

I must say its made me feel a bit better about the situation..Although I do think trebling the fees is a massive hike, & monies could be reaped back from other ventures before they hit education.

As for the protests. again I agree with them if peaceful. But not as they are with the minorities being violent. I don't lay blame on the police. You can never match the amount of police to the amount of protesters. They have to do what the can to restrain the yobs, even if innocent protesters get caught up in it. Its the risk any peaceful protester takes, knowing there will be violence & they may get caught up in it. Its their choice to attend, but the police have no choice. Its part of their job & they must go & do what they can under extreme conditions.

William, I've agreed with every one of your comments!

BTW, we have had protests in Winchester - anyone seen them in the media? No, of course not. One attempt at 'infiltration' into Hampshire County Council HQ came to an abrupt end when a couple of the students saw their mothers waving from windows!! LOL

BUT our children have been 'done down' by the Lib Dems, who undoubtedly got a lot of votes by declaring that further education should be free, then totally backing down.
How can we expect our children to tell the truth when their 'leaders' openly lie?
They have every right to be angry.
...and I will be heartly thankful when politicians stop referring to 'the poor' as if they are aliens from another planet .

maggie - who got a degree 11 years ago and is earning a lot less than £21,000. Thankfully I took it because I wanted to - not because I thought I would earn a fortune......
but is well p*ssed off that those earning twice what she does don't seem to have a basic grasp of their native tongue, basic computing or organisational skills!!!

Well no-one can argue with that :)

I always think 1 good phone call is better than 30 texts you sometimes just can't here the way some people reply. It's the changes in tone that get lost on here and i would like to think my tones would be complementing others veiwpoint on here. good healthy debate is what also made this country good.
Brian

William you havent got it wrong you are 100% correct
don't feel that way it's very difficult to debate without direct retort.
I feel exactly the same as you, you can feel a little un understood with e Debate.
Brian

Sometimes what people see on tv can be things orchestrated by people who really wan't good honest protest to look really bad.
I don't trust any media i see.
Am i thinking some in goverment may pay a few yobs to derail peacfull protest then i think yeh given past protest i really do beleive this happens.

Its always the same when I try and quote anything,I always seem to get it wrong.lol

I'm only too pleased to make a contribution to the debate about these matters.A debate that when presented fairly,those of us with a progressive viewpoint will always win.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

I must be a little un understood.
I do agree with the protest. It's just well meaning people attend protest and sometimes there is an unexpected infiltration that cause mayhem. and then that makes the media a good negative story.
those who may cause and encourage disorder.. may well be young people who are encouraged to mask up and turn the protest into a negative protest.
there may be people in goverment who would be happy to derail good honest protest.

I think that's why the students were protesting Brian: so that others wouldn't end up with 30k+ worth of debt.

Envying and education is what made britain great too William and i do envy those who's life chances are made somewhat easier by the home they are born into. It's not an envy of weath that i have, but deffinately the envy of opportunity that should be given to every child in this land.
Brian

William --

Its the same the whole world over,
it's the poor that gets the blame,
It's the rich that gets the pleasure.
Isn't it a blooming shame!

I used that as my signature line at a discussion board for a while. ;)


And in a society, it isn't how rich or poor the society is, but how big the gap between rich and poor is, that shows how fair the society it is. And also, that can predict the extent of the social problems it will have.

A society in which everyone is equally poor is happier and safer than a society where there are the few at the top with much, and the many at the bottom with little.

The European countries, for example, with the smallest gap between rich and poor also tend to have lower crime rates.

And things like high post-secondary tuition fees are exactly the kinds of things that guarantee that the gap between rich and poor will get ever wider, and that the poor will stay poor.

I can perhaps only repeat what I've said before.I have got no special agenda of my own and I would't claim to have even half the answers!

All I wish to see is the kids that live on tthe council estate where i live to have the same opportunities and lifechances as those that go to Eton and Harrow.It has nothing to do with envy but opportunity for all.

Regards
William Russell Jones.

I must end my little debate tonight but i should end where i started.
this argument won't be won on the streets note no full stop here
but will be won across polling booths across the land.
but that's gonna be when my daughter already has 30k of debt.
Brian

Sadly, it's only when protests go awry that they receive the publicity they deserve. Last weekend there were protests all over the country against Top Shop & Boots, and other notorious tax avoiders which received very little coverage in the media.

I'm not condoning any violence committed by any protesters but, as I said before, the police are trained (or are supposed to be) to deal with this type of incident without resorting to violence.