General Chat

I'm sorry Janey if you thought that was for you personally. I didn't address it to anyone in particular. Just believed I would put it up. People can make up their own minds what they think of it.
Katherine xx

"That "un-caused" cause is God."

Uh huh. And as a couple of us have pretty much asked:

What caused the god?

"Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunset. All of these things point to a creator God. There is also evidence of God in our hearts. "

And the successful growth of my veg garden is evidence of the existence of my faeries. The evidence of them is also in my heart. Too bad you can't see that.

"If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God."

And if there were no dictionaries, there would be no definitions.

I can define "pink elephant". I won't argue that this means there are pink elephants.

The existence of a concept does not prove the existence of the thing conceived of.

"There is also the moral argument where everyone has a sense of right and wrong. We feel we are accountable to one another. Where did this come from if not from a Holy God?"

You've heard of evolution, maybe? The success of our species rather depends on feelings like accountability, and empathy.

And they came originally from the big bang, like everything else, and then by way of the primeval ooze.

"Another argument is the teleological argument. Which states that since the universe has such an amazing design. there must have been a divine designer, eg, if the earth was significantly closer or farther away, from the sun."

That's not an argument; it's an assertion. And it's all called petitio principii. Arguing in a circle. Not an argument.

"People claim to reject Gods existence because it is "not scientific" or "because there is no proof".

Actually, I -- are you talking to/about anyone in particular? -- don't believe in gods because the idea of gods is nonsensical and I don't believe in nonsense. And if there were a god or gods, it or they would be so infinitely beyond my capacity to know/understand that it would be entirely pointless for me to even contemplate the notion.

"Is not the true reason because if they admit there is a God they will be accountable to him."

And they say atheists are rude.

How about you take your nasty presumptuous talk about people who don't share your beliefs -- like me -- to someplace where such things are appreciated?

This isn't one such place.


By the way, does this God of yours approve of plagiarism -- the stealing of someone else's work?

Google finds me 3,010 results for that screed you have pasted here. This might be the original source, but you never know:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Does-God-exist.html

That brings to mind irrelevantly and irreverently Stephen Fry's comment on how to get rid of 'cold callers' and pushy salesmen on the phone..

" Before you begin, can I tell you about my Saviour?"

I really don't believe it matters if Janey ( just as an example) does not believe in the existence of God...
or that I do ( most of the time).

And I accept that might seem woolly-minded to some, and that doesn't worry me either lol... I can't argue the case 'for', I can't be convinced of the case 'against'... it is for me a very personal 'instinct' ..if I'm wrong , and the limitations of my imagination and knowledge mean I probably am, in my vision of God, if not 'his' actual existence, then so be it...

Thanks, Katherine. Very enlightening.

Not.

I think I'll go have a chat with the faeries at the bottom of my garden now.

Oh poor Janey....

love.....quote (something else I don't especially believe in anyway) unquote.


Now, as you well know, there are several kinds of love.....surely you are touched by one of them?


However, the time has come for me to retire, extremely gracefully I hope, for the night. Good night all.

:) Cx.

The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The bible says that we must accept by faith that God exists. "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards them who earnestly seek him". (Hebrews 11:6). If God so desired, he could simply appear and prove to the world that he exists. But if he did that, there would be no need for faith. "Then Jesus told him, because you have seen me you have believed. Blessed are those that have not seen me and yet have believed". (John 20:29). That doesn't mean however, that there is no evidence of Gods existence. The bible states " the heavens declare the glory of God. The skies proclaim the work of his hands. day after day they put forth speech. Night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world". (Psalm 19:1-4). Looking at the stars, understanding the vastness of the universe, observing the wonders of nature, seeing the beauty of a sunset. All of these things point to a creator God. There is also evidence of God in our hearts. (Ecclesiastes 3:11) tells us "He has also set eternity in the hearts of men". Deep within us is the recognition that there is something beyond this life, and someone beyond this world. We can deny this knowledge intellectually, but Gods presence in us and all around us is still obvious. The bible also says that some will still deny Gods existence " the fool says in his heart "there is no God" (Psalm 14:1) Seeing as most of the earth believe in the existence of a God there must be someone or something causing this belief
There are also logical arguments as well as the biblical ones. there is the ontological one which uses the concept of God to proves Gods existence This concept is "a being than which no greater can be conceived" It is then argued that to exist is greater than not to exist, and therefore the greatest conceivable being must exist. If God did not exist, then God would not be the greatest conceivable being, and that would contradict the very definition of God.
Another argument is the teleological argument. Which states that since the universe has such an amazing design. there must have been a divine designer, eg, if the earth was significantly closer or farther away, from the sun. it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, nearly every living thing on earth would die. the odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10 (followed by 243 0s or zeros) Can't do the power of on the keyboard sorry! A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.
Another logical argument is the cosmological argument. Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something "un-caused" in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That "un-caused" cause is God.
There is also the moral argument where everyone has a sense of right and wrong. We feel we are accountable to one another. Where did this come from if not from a Holy God?
People claim to reject Gods existence because it is "not scientific" or "because there is no proof". Is not the true reason because if they admit there is a God they will be accountable to him. But, by believing he doesn't exist the feel they can do whatever they want without being judged which is where the theory of naturalistic evolution comes in as an alternative belief.
How do christians know that God exists? We speak to him everyday and he guides us and leads us through his word and his presence within us. We know his love and we feel his grace. Things have happened in our lives that can have no possible explanation other than God. God has so miraculously saved us and changed our lives that we cannot help but acknowledge and praise his existence' None of these arguments can persuade anyone who refuses to acknowledge what is already obvious. In the end , Gods existence must be accepted by faith.
Faith in God is not a blind leap into the dark. It is a safe step into a well lit room where the vast majority of people are already standing.

Cynthia and RR -- I like jazz because I've heard it. If I'd never heard it, I could hardly like it!

How could one be a Christian if one had never heard or read the Christian texts?? Like I said: makes no sense.

One might find that one likes Christian doctrines once one hears them, just as I liked jazz once I heard it. But that doesn't mean that it *comes from* inside. It comes from outside, and resonates with something inside, perhaps.

Christianity, like any other religion, is taught/learned. The belief in what is taught is a choice. For whatever reason. But if one had been reared in darkest Podunk with no access to Christian teaching -- or been born in the year 100 BC -- one could not be a Christian. It's simply impossible to believe / believe in something one has never heard of.

What I feel for No.1, which I wouldn't call love (something else I don't especially believe in anyway), is an emotion, engendered by experience and my personality. I didn't invent No.1, I met him, got to know him, and liked him. Just as you did with Christianity, Cynthia.

No.1 may occasionally make me feel pleasant, by something he says or does, or just by his existence. But he does exist. It's his existence that has that effect. I don't infer his existence from the effect!

Christianity exists, but a religion exists a little differently from the way a tall skinny middle-aged but very youthful male person exists. It exists in people's minds; it is an idea. No.1 exists in the physical world; he is a thing.

The question, though, is whether a god exists. And I haven't noticed one of them lounging on the chesterfield lately. ;)

None of you guys can have the least clue whether you would believe in a god if you hadn't been taught to. No.1 wasn't taught to, and he never has. The idea is as weird and incomprehensible to him as it became to me once I got over the teaching.

Some people like the idea when they're taught it. Most of us also liked the idea of Santa Claus!


The census I'm worried about is the 2011 Canadian. The vile disgusting Conservative filth running the show here have eviscerated it, and the statisticians now tell us that even if the public outcry caused them to reverse themselves, it is too late for a proper detailed census to be prepared. Stephen Harper, you know ...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/stephen-harper-condemns-koran-burning-my-christ-is-a-tolerant-god/article1700607/

“I don't speak very often about my own religion, but let me be very clear: My God and my Christ is a tolerant God, and that's what we want to see in this world,” he said.

Stephen Harper's god invented the world in seven days -- Harper became a fundamentalist Pentecostal when it seemed politically useful. Just the sort of person I want running my country.

Not.

Why isn't there any point in saying it in public Janey? Everyone else is saying what they do or don't believe.


Hmmm....how can I explain the Christian faith within me bit? Well of course, the written and spoken word have had their effect on me and I have inwardly tried to digest them. Please don't take that literally ';)


My church attendance has given me a certain discipline and a sense of belonging as well as 'feeding me'. Have had some brilliant fun and friendships too.


I can't remember everything I have learnt but, as I can't remember every meal I have ever eaten, I know most of it has done me some good and kept me 'nourished'.


Umm .. ..okay.....how do you explain your love of jazz music? (I think it's jazz you like isn't it?)


I assume, (which isn't always a wise thing to do), that it 'touches' something within you....a nerve, a chord.....call it whatever you want.....it isn't a tangible thing, it's
something which generally makes you feel happy or content or......whatever.


Can you describe your love for your OH? Can you describe it? Touch it? Or do we just have to believe that your love for him is something between the two of you, something personal which you share and which is hard to define and express?



HEY!.....that's not fair JC....I don't DO intense cyber faith chats.......now go and find a census to worry about. :)) Cx

Janey to answer your last question ,

"But to say that a "Christian faith" comes from deep within someone ... that just makes no sense. Would it have arrived by osmosis if there were no written texts and no churches to promulgate them? ;)"

It wouldn't have been a 'Christian ' faith without being told about, or reading texts about Christ. ...but it would still have been a faith.

Arrived by osmosis? well yes really because i think I would have faith in a 'higher being' ( call it what one will ) even had no one ever told me there might be one, you can argue that is Man just making a God in his own image or trying to find an explanation for things they can't understand ...or you could say it was an instinctive 'recognition' ...that for some is there and for others isn't...like the faeries ( or fairies) at the bottom of your garden ;)

I don't understand quantum physics...I might if I tried, I do have a little grasp of the Big Bang (is that still a THEORY btw?) , just as I have a little knowledge of Darwinism,and evolution...but none of those is incompatible with my 'faith' :))

I await the hour of my demise ( not just yet I hope) when I shall know for sure that as per usual I was 'right' ;)

There's very little point to most of the stuff that gets posted on here, Janey. How much point there is isn't why we post or read and it's uncharitable of you to be so dismissive.

That's all very well, Cynthia. ;)

There's just little point in saying it in public.

I may as well say there are faeries at the bottom of the garden and I know because I have spoken to them and it gives me great comfort that they are watching over my veg garden. It makes as much sense and it has as much meaning to anyone else. At least, anyone who hasn't got faeries at the bottom of their garden too.

There are lots of things that pass understanding. Quantum physics passes mine, at least it does now. If I bothered to investigate it, it might not, at least not totally. The fact that I don't understand something doesn't mean either that it is real or that it isn't real.

I'm not at all interested in discussions about "the faith". ;) Not yours in a god, not mine in my faeries.

Discussions about the workings of the universe, at least those aspects that we're able to fathom, are worth having in the same way that discussions about anything else real are worth having.

But to say that a "Christian faith" comes from deep within someone ... that just makes no sense. Would it have arrived by osmosis if there were no written texts and no churches to promulgate them? ;)

Cynthia, I don't have as strong a faith as you appear to have but I admire your post and feel similarly.

I would never criticise anyone for not believing in the God that I do and I don't understand why anyone would try to belittle or attack what I believe.

Well, God does exist for me but I don't suppose anyone is really interested.


I don't 'do' intense philosophical arguments into the why's and wherefore's of the formation of the universe nor do I argue the case for and against Darwinism - those arguments have been around for so long and can, and do, go on .....for ever!


I am not prepared to have intense mega cyber discussions about the faith but am willing to sit alongside someone and share my experiences, to state my case and to listen to their questions, their hopes and their fears.


I know that having a faith is right for me but am aware that others are not prepared to go that way, but I won't fall out with them about it.


I have been willing to listen and learn from those more experienced than me and then to weigh up what I have heard.


I have been prepared to open my heart and mind to things which I found uncomfortable and disturbing.


I can only say that without a faith I would have nothing. Life would be empty and meaningless; I would be drifting along, hopeless, aimless and rootless and....probably bored!


I am a human being and, like most others, have my moments of fear and doubt, l but I also have deep feelings of hope, of joy, of fulfilment, of awareness, of contentment, of peace and of that 'something' which passes all understanding.


I simply have a Christian faith that comes from deep within me and which keeps me going and I thank God for it.


:)) Cx

Questions that has no logic answer is,


God created heaven and earth and all that went and goes with it,,,,,,,Adam and Eve,the only living humans they had 2 sons,,,,,,where did the women come from for the sons-----incest?
and how did he know to make one a woman and call it a woman and one a man?

and who on earth created God?
where did he arrive from,did he drop out the sky as a first humam with all the thinking cells and makeup as we have now ?

so a god didnt for me really exsist and still doesnt.

I think as we move more into the world of Quantum mechanics the more confused we will all get, particles do not act in the same way as common sense says thing should act, funny things are these particles they are opening up a whole new set of laws.

Guess it all depends on what one thinks one's god wants of one.

If one's god has volumes of rules that are to be followed, and one follows them to the letter, there are a lot of really fine and interesting things in real life that one might miss out on for no reason at all. That's one's choice, of course.

If one thinks that one's god looks only at the big picture and doesn't really care if one happens to have inhaled a few interesting substances or not bothered getting official blessings for one's romantic adventures, or generally handled one's affairs as one pleased without harming others, why bother? One is really just making up one's own rules anyway, so ascribing them to a god is just a bit of intellectual cowardice, isn't it?

On the other hand, if one thinks that one's god wants one to convert the unbelievers and punish people who don't follow one's god's rules ... well, that goes beyond belief, and it does become seriously problematic for other people, whether it wins eternal life or not.

Janey, Only wasted if people think that it 'doesn't matter' what you do here or that what you make of this life is irrelevant because " it's the after life that matters" or is your 'reward for going to church every Sunday' ;)

If I'm right and there IS a God / afterlife then what I do here really counts, both in terms of making the most of the 'God given gift' and for the sake of my 'immortal soul' ( that last still needs some work !)

If I'm wrong and there isn't anything after then every minute of this life really counts.....

win/win...or lose/lose...depending on how you see it :)

Hee hee.

The Latin verb for "care" is curare. (From which we get curator, etc.) A "care" is curo.

I am care-free, when it comes to gods! Untroubled, unconcerned, unworried.

So I'd say I'm an insouciant agnostic atheist. ;)

I think the point is: why would anyone think that something created anything?

The "laws" are the way things work, like the law of gravity.

They aren't like "everyone who commits murder shall be sentenced to imprisonment for life ...".

They don't tell things how to behave. They describe how things behave.

Why is it more fantastical to think that things just *are* than to think that something created them?

If you think something created things, don't you have to ask what created the something that created everything else?

So believing that a god just *is*, and doesn't exist because something else created it, isn't much different from believing that things just are, if you ask me.

Except, of course, that I *know* that things exist, and nobody knows that a god exists. ;)

And certainly I don't think that any of the things that exist in the universe take a personal interest in me, or in any of the billions of other things like me that have existed and will exist, or in any of all the other things in the universe. Or want to punish or reward me for what I do, in some other magical life in some other magical place. I do find that just silly.

Everything in the universe just is, and I just am. If anything else exists, I wouldn't and couldn't possibly know.

That's why, being rational, I am an
agnostic (don't know)
atheist (don't believe)
and if I knew the Latin word for "don't care", I'd add that too. ;)

mmm very interesting, what i think he is saying that they now have proof than all things in the universe follow laws of nature, he also said but who made them laws? so he as not said their is no God, just that the universe was not created.