General Chat

Sue, no disrespect received, if someone has a christian belief then they believe that God has ultimate authority as there is no-one higher than himself. As he is Holy there is no wrongness in him and therefore he is able to judge any situation, wrong done or right done impartially.
Janey,
God deals with the question you had about stealing because of hunger by not judging them as he is able to judge the intentions of the heart and not just the deed. It is men who make the law a law unto itself at times. As for the abortion issue. Though I don't agree with it, I would never take away or judge people for the choices they make. I have supported people who have made that decision with much pain, not having anyone to turn to and they didn't come to the decision lightly. I myself have not done this but, I have lost two babies in the past but it wouldn't affect my compassion for those who are making the extremely difficult choice on whether to terminate a pregnancy or not and I certainly wouldn't pressure them.
We tend not to think through the consequences of our actions at times is what I want to say and, when we suffer we wonder why.
No-one has all the answers and, I certainly don't but. I believe God has all the answers anyone will ever need if people want them. They may not like the answer that he gives but it is for their benefit in the end and there are many, many people who can agree though not everyone will. but that's free will.

Katherine xx

And, quoting the two Ronnies

It's goodnight from her, and goodnight from me"

Sue x

It's been very interesting :) but I'm off to bed...so in the words of the inimitable Dave Allen

"Goodnight and may your God go with you" :))

xx

I'm sorry to disagree, Katherine, but

"When speaking of love when referring to God, it is Agape love which is unconditional love. In other words God loves us whatever and has nothing to do with Filia love which refers to human emotions"

If, as the bible asserts, your god made us in his image, then surely he gave us the ability to give love unconditionally. As a parent and as a wife, I do believe I've done so in the case of my late husband, and continue to do so, in the case of my daughter.

Sue x

Hi Janey

"soul" comes into it - a la soul music

"As for that luv business thou quoteth: that wasn't love, that was patriarchy. ;) And I don't buy into that one either!"

Buy into it or not - your choice. But I do.

Sue x

Katherine ,Re Romans:It was cited in the C & P that Janey posted as below http://www.gotquestions.org/Does-God-exist.html ,
of the version you posted
( sorry to confuse)

"Here's the way it goes in the version I cited (yours is apparently an ungrammatical paraphrase):

'People claim to not believe in God because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once people admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23; 6:23).' <<<

Sorry, Katherine, I don't quite follow that.

I respect your right to your beliefs, as I respect the rights of everyone to their beliefs, and I do agree that we are all accountable to each other.

I can understand the idea that there is an ideal way to live, which I guess involves "doing onto others as you would have them do onto you"

And here we have a non-sequitur - the idea (in my mind)/belief (in your mind) that this whole thing is controlled by "God". Why? Says who?

Your first sentence "God himself declares that he is a holy God". No disrespect intended, but I could declare myself a lottery winner/supporter of NUFC as premiership champions/size 10 and aged 30 - but does that make it so? Not unless I was Jean-Luc Picard

Sue x

Janey,
I am not out to convince anyone of my beliefs as I believe only God can do this.
When speaking of love when referring to God, it is Agape love which is unconditional love. In other words God loves us whatever and has nothing to do with Filia love which refers to human emotions. RR hi, I'm confused as to the Romans quotations you have mentioned as the only verses out of the new testament quoted where from Hebrews and john?

Katherine xx

How strange that you should post that Suzian :)) well not 'strange' but "Whither thou goest..." was very much in my mind last night...

Wowsers, I don't often encounter this kind of god-bothering ... because I try not to go looking for it.



"There will always be people using faith to gain power and control over others but, it doesn't make it acceptable and neither does blaming faith when the faith is in opposition to what is being done in it's name."

Me, I don't blame "faith" for anything, just in case I was a suspect. "Faith" is what some people claim to have. It seems to be somehow distinct from "belief", but I've never figured out how. Belief based on nothing, I think is how it goes.

I blame people for what they do.

Including when they claim that what they do is right (or what someone else does is wrong ... and must be punished) because some unseen supreme authority sez so.

If I "blame" religious belief for anything it is in the same sense that I "blame" greed or stupidity or altruism or hunger: I point to it as the apparent motivation for someone's actions.

People motivated by the same thing can do very different things. Hungry people can do good and bad things as a result of being hungry. Religious people can do good and bad things as a result of being religious. Ultimately, it's a matter of choice in both cases -- whether to do anything, and whether to do beneficial or harmful things.

It's just that "I stole that diamond because I was hungry" gets a lot less respect in our world than "I voted to violate women's fundamental rights because my god says abortion is evil".

Dirty pool, as I said. And sorry excuses.

Just godless and soulless, moi.

When I'm moved, I call it "emotion".

Should I mention that "emotions" and "move" have the same root word? ;)

Isn't it emotion that one feels when one is moved?

Where/why does this "soul" come into it?


As for that luv business thou quoteth: that wasn't love, that was patriarchy. ;) And I don't buy into that one either!

Janey
I meant outrage, by you saying that I can take my comments elsewhere.
Sue, God himself declares he is a holy God and as we are accountable to one another as in every cause has an effect.ie. if someone was slapped by someone they would be hurt and angry or afraid or if someone hugged someone they would feel loved and wanted. it all has to be initiated then received. As God is holy, he initiates his righteousness and we receive it either through acceptance or rejection and receive the consequences either way. If we accept his righteousness then we realise that we are accountable to him. There is a debt to pay as we are separate from him because we can't measure up to his perfection. God remedied this by paying the penalty himself through Christ as he is a loving God and by this we can have his pardon and be able to live as he designed us to live as clearly laid down in the bible. Unfortunately not everyone who says they are a christian behaves as one, as a true christian would not dictate to anyone how to live their lives as they would be too busy having the planks taken out of their own eyes first in order to see the specks in others eyes, to quote Jesus. There will always be people using faith to gain power and control over others but, it doesn't make it acceptable and neither does blaming faith when the faith is in opposition to what is being done in it's name.

Hi Rose

Some "dreaded bible references" - to my mind at least - back up my thinking about the spiritual versus the religious. If you accept my thinking that the spiritual is something that moves something deep inside of you - which, by way of shorthand, I'll call my "soul" - here's the bit of the bible that does it for me:


"Entreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God: Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the Lord do so to me, and more also, if aught but death part thee and me.”

And that, Janey, if you're still around, is what love means to me!

Sue x

I must admit to a shrinking away feeling when I see those dreaded bible references appear :( ( don't smite me just yet I shall explain) They nearly always are used to back up someone's 'interpretation' , added to give gravitas to something not very well argued....
( digging large whole here lol)

but for example the aforementioned 'Romans 3:23,6:23'
which are in 'standard' versions

Romans 3:23 (New International Version)
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
and
6:23 " For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

neither of which, to me ( my interpretation lol) , bear any relevance to the paragraph they were attached to nor do they 'bolster' the argument.

Quite often I feel more comfortable with the 'dogma' of the Atheists than I do with the dogma of the 'religious'...

Hey,if I didn't believe in God I think I'd be an atheist instead :))

He all

I thought I'd enter the fray.

I'm not at all sure that there is, or is not, a "god" - since I can neither prove nor disprove the existence of one.

I do, however, accept that I, at least, have what I would call a spiritual side. The bit of me that gets moved by certain music, certain places, certain words. Do you think that that has got itself confused with "god" along the way?

What I can't understand is "There is also the moral argument where everyone has a sense of right and wrong. We feel we are accountable to one another. Where did this come from if not from a Holy God?"

All I can say to that is that this "holy god" must be a bit ambivalent. Since my idea of "right" is most certainly others' of "wrong"

Sue x

That screed was not logical, it was someone else's work and you did simply paste it from somewhere else without credit and that is plagiarism, and it was insulting. And pathetic, really.

If you wanted to rebut what I said -- as I rebutted what you copied and pasted -- you're free to do so.

There might be something worth reading on the issue (not that I've ever seen anything). But that wasn't it.

Stop pretending to read my mind, again.

"Complete outrage"?

Pointing out insulting, rude commentary when I see it.

If I got completely outraged at the rude and insulting behaviour of those who seek to propagate their religiosity, I wouldn't have time to eat.

It's not plagarism janey. You can't plagarise Gods word or what people have said in public. It's not rude to say that if you believe in God you are accountable to him as that is what is written, and if someone who didn't believe in God then changed their minds, they would realise that they are accountable. I don't judge people for what they believe or go out of my way to insult them, and I say again the post wasn't for you in particular.
You believe what you believe for your own reasons and I thought those logical arguments were pertinent to the topic in case anyone wanted a different view other than agnostiscm or atheism as the two are very separate beliefs.
If people just posted things that were appreciated by everyone Janey then there wouldn't be much on here worth reading. I can understand your differing with me on what I posted but. not this complete outrage!

Katherine xx

Katherine, could you possibly think it isn't "personal" when you (or the person whose work you cribbed) says things like that?

Here's the way it goes in the version I cited (yours is apparently an ungrammatical paraphrase):

'People claim to not believe in God because it is “not scientific” or “because there is no proof.” The true reason is that once people admit that there is a God, they also must realize that they are responsible to God and in need of forgiveness from Him (Romans 3:23; 6:23).'

First, we have an insulting "strawman" argument. That's not why I, or anyone I know, "claims to not believe in God".

(That sentence is a little badly written. Is that supposedly the reason why people don't believe in a god, or is it that people claim not to believe in a god and offer that reason? I don't *claim* not to "believe in God"; I *don't believe* there is a god or gods. Saying that I claim not to believe implies I am lying. Saying that people don't believe and offering those reasons as their reasons is just setting one's self up to win an argument with no one, unless someone actually said that.)

Then we have the grossly more insulting assertion that I -- I am one of the people being talked about, a person who does not believe there is a god -- have reasons for my non-belief that are, flatly, false. It's a lie about me.

The reason I do not believe that there is a god or gods is NOT that if there were a god I would be accountable to it.

That's just nonsense anyway. How would my refusing to believe that something exists eliminate my accountability to it, if such there were??

I'm not an idiot. So ascribing that motivation to me is another big insult.

And then there's the implied insult: that if I don't accept that I am accountable to an unseen entity and need forgiveness from it, I am in all likelihood an unrepentant evildoer.


Atheists generally do believe the world would be a better place if these beliefs were abandoned, or withered and died -- if everyone simply accepted responsibility for themselves, and acknowledged that this life and this world are the only ones we have and thus the only ones that matter, and especially stopped trying to run other people's lives by rules they have chosen to believe come from some supreme authority.

Atheists don't claim any authority, for anything we do or say. That's the big diff.

yep wouldn't argue with that, Janey :)).

RR -- it doesn't matter to me that you or anyone else believes there is a god, either! (I can't say "believes in", because that implies there's something to believe in. ;) )

It only matters to me when anyone starts trying to run the world as if there were a god or gods, and as if they knew what the god or gods want, and as if what the god or gods wanted was for the people who believe in it or them to run the world in a way I don't agree with.

Anybody can do that, of course -- try to run the world in a way I don't agree with -- without claiming an unseen entity as their authority. But claiming an unseen entity as one's authority for running other people's lives really is just dirty pool.