General Chat

Ah, Sylvia, yes, so those were the flag-draped coffins I was watching on TV this morning. Don't remember whether it was BBC World or CBC News-whatever it's calling itself these days. (And I just love how it has adopted mother beeb's use of synthesized drum noise over top of the sports, the weather, the entertainment and even the news, it seems. It will be losing me permanently to CNN for that, I fear.)

probably Janey


I've usually seen the Lyneham ones on BBC World ....... which I also watch, along with CBC News (aka CBCNN) and CNN


I doubt whether even the beeb shows the hearses driving along the Canadian Highway of Heroes ...... which just incidentally, I believe was the first such honoring of fallen soldiers anywhere in the world.



it's always good to get other opinions on events



Problem is that so much of CNN is slanted America-wise!



sylvia

Heh, it's not like I like CNN. But it has a long news cycle, and it's funny to watch them and their navel-gazing. We do MSNBC too. Pay for that, but not Faux, once the very long free trial period ended. Stopped paying for deutschewelle because we never remembered to watch it ... and as far as I know our cable carrier still isn't offering us Al-Jazeera!

Have to admit that Anderson Cooper is one of our favourites on CNN


he does ask awkward questions of politicans and others!


some of the questions he asked during the New Orleans hurricane debacle, and that he has continued to ask in the succeeding years, made us go "Yeah!!"




but I hate watching CNN when overseas, in Europe, England or down under ........ it's sooooooooo sick-makingly patriotic!!

Cooper in Katrina was a peak moment in journalism. (Imagine that, a journalist fighting for people's right to *live*.) We saw it live at the time and were gobsmacked.

Amazingly, some more of the best and most honest coverage of Katrina was on Fox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_FEsKspu8Y

(the whole thing) It was shortlived.

I did write to my MP then - well, not mine, another one I know.

The US was declining the help Canada was offering -- our *military*, to do rescue work, water purification -- things that our military is particulalry good at. I wrote urging my party to urge our government to just send the b'dy people and stuff there and let the yankee b*ds turn them away.

Eventually, our federal government did get to contribute specialized diving teams, for instance. (The US states had given up on their federal government and come directly to our provinces and municipalities to get specialized rescue teams from firefighting units, for instance.)

Had there been no journalists there, I think a lot more people would be dead now.

I'm sure a lot more people would be dead!


we watched that same programme live, just gobsmacked at the temerity of Anderson Cooper, and the guy who was then the host of the program .... and who lost his job to Cooper!

Fancy asking such awkward questions of Dubya?!


The Vancouver special rescue team was one of the ones who went down after 7 or 8 days, without invitation because they just couldn't stand watching any more desperation. They went to a town ourside New Orleans ....... they weren't allowed into NO. Unofrtunately most of their work by that time was searching hosues and marking whether or not there were bodies inside.


anyway time for dinner over here on the West Coast ......... and Global, then a bit of CBCNN, a bit of CNN and a bit of BBC



I will be back .............as someone once said!

Back to the paternal grandfather -- he was part of the evil, vicious, rotten occupying forces in Ireland after WWI. I have absolutely no doubt that when he went out at night dressed in black on secret missions, he killed people. Am I proud of him??? Don't make me laugh. He was also a horrible gambling, drinking, wife-abusing man. But maybe he saved a kid in WWI. I wouldn't know. If he died, he deserves thanks.

My late brother was one of the 'evil, vicious, occupying forces in Ireland although later.

His ammunition was issued before his patrol and if he had fired even a single round he had a lot of explaining to do! Perceived close combat warfare isn't always what the press portrays.

I agree the Iraq invasion was illegal but I don't condemn servicemen and women for serving there....what is their alternative? a disgraceful end to their military career.

I do receive Al Jazeera amongst many other International news channels. Sadly Fox News is a joke and it's 'in depth journalism' is an insult to all human intelligence.

I am a supporter of the Palestinians and I will not expand on this thread exactly why. I have lost count of the number of times I have cried over the decades when digesting the latest attempt to crush both the people and their (already) poor infrastructure and lack of opportunity to escape the grinding poverty. I'll stop there as I don't wish to offend.

We can all acknowledge non combatants who have fought for the repressed but we can all also thank the soldiers who have given tremendous service, and in many cases their lives, to try and right injustices which are rife throughout the world.

I don't wish to insult any serviceman in Afghanistan but I despair that our troops are there, ostensibly, to ensure fair and lawful voting in the recent farce of an election. Our government's decision to maintain that presence is beyond me.

I apparently mistyped: "But maybe he saved a kid in WWI. I wouldn't know. If he died, he deserves thanks." -- should have been "if he *did*, he deserves thanks". He died in the 1950s, in the hotel where he was staying with the other woman.


"I agree the Iraq invasion was illegal but I don't condemn servicemen and women for serving there....what is their alternative? a disgraceful end to their military career."

Disgraceful? In whose eyes? Not mine. A brave and honourable rejection of an illegal and immoral mission. Nothing disgraceful about that.

I have friends who rejected the mission the US would have sent them on to Vietnam. Either resisted the draft, or quit the military. And came to Canada. Honourable men. No.2 was one of the former, by the way. I helped one of the latter at some (could have been significant) personal sacrifice.

What was disgraceful was what the US did in Vietnam, and what the US and its hangers-on have done in Iraq.

We all make choices, and some of them involve sacrifices. I sacrificed the quite undoubtedly enormous amount of money I could have made in corporate law or some such drek, choosing instead to work for mainly non-paying refugees. I don't see my sacrifice as particularly lesser than someone sacrificing a military career to do the right thing. It absorbed years of my life, and left me burnt out. Better than a court martial? Not necessarily.


"We can all acknowledge non combatants who have fought for the repressed but we can all also thank the soldiers who have given tremendous service, and in many cases their lives, to try and right injustices which are rife throughout the world."

Maybe you could turn that around and tell it to the author of the screed in question, and his devoted fans:


It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.

It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.

It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.

It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.


He could have thanked the soldiers for their contribution, without lying about and dishonouring the many non-soldiers who have, in fact, made our societies what they are.

He chose to lie about all those people, poets and journalists and lawyers who have sacrificed their lives for others' rights and freedoms. When all he had to do to make his point was say that soldiers are among those who should be thanked.

I don't think that was his point, of course.

I think his whole screed was an effort to discredit anyone who dissents in any way from the right-wing, militaristic line.

A lot of people just don't like dissent. Or rights and freedoms, really, at all.

Dissent ...

http://sites.google.com/site/unitedwestandproject/

... agreeing with me.


... I’ve seen this militaristic screed on several conservative blogs, often accompanied by inspirational pictures of Old Glory flapping against a rich, blue sky. If the blogger has a relative serving in the military, his or her picture is usually also included with the poem. It’s an understandably seductive notion for military personnel: the idea that you’re a part of something bigger than yourself, actively involved in securing the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity. During the recent presidential campaign, an anti-war protester interrupted Sarah Palin during a rally in Florida, and as security removed the protester from the site, Palin called out after him, "Bless your heart sir, my son is in Iraq fighting for your right to protest." That comment brought the crowd to their feet, and footage of the statement went viral among right wing blogs.

Both Palin’s comments and the “It Is The Soldier” poem are examples of the dangerous tendency in this country to romanticize the military, attributing all of our freedoms and liberties to the steadfast vigilance of American might. While it's nice to think that it is the soldier, not the reporter or poet, who gives us the freedom of speech and of the press, a quick look at the history of free speech and free press in the US shows that those freedoms are most often threatened during times of war.

The Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 were implemented to stifle dissent during an undeclared naval war with France. Writers, speakers, activists, and abolitionists were harassed with various sedition and criminal conspiracy laws throughout the 19th century. The Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918 made it illegal to criticize the US's entry into WWI. The 1940 Alien Registration Act was used mainly as a tool against Communist or Socialist Worker groups, and during and after WWII dissent was suppressed with loyalty oaths, censorship, and blacklists.

The government also actively suppressed Vietnam War protest movements (often violently), and FISA the USA PATRIOT Act have increased domestic spying powers during the current War on Terror.

***No American war has ever protected or expanded our first amendment rights. No US battle has ever been fought to provide dissidents more room to operate. The battles for our fragile first amendment rights have often been left to the poets, reporters, activists, lawyers, and organizers who exercise them, at times facing the very soldiers who are supposedly responsible for protecting those rights.***

And it's not just the First Amendment that the little people have fought and bled and died for. Child labor laws, the eight hour day, the five day work week, workplace safety standards, the minimum wage: all of these victories were won through battles fought by regular people just like you and me.

These were wars that we never learn about in history class. The casualties of this war have no national monument. Dedicated men and women, practically powerless against the formidable leaders of industry and their allies in government, somehow managed to rise up and overcome unimaginable adversity to win victories that would have put David and his slingshot to shame.

As children, we didn’t have to experience the horrors of working sixteen hours underground in the coal mines each day. We don’t have to put our elderly grandparents to work in order to put scraps of food on the table. We don’t have to worry about dying young because our only option in life is to do dangerous work in unsafe conditions. This is their legacy to us, and, unfortunately, it’s a legacy that is too easy to take for granted. ...

_____________________________________


Couldn't really have said it better myself. ;)

Tommy (1890) Rudyard Kipling



I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, 'We serve no erd-coats 'ere.'
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed and giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again, an' to myself sez I:
Oh, it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, go away':
But it's 'Thank you, Mister Atkins,' when the band begins to play -
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
Oh, it's 'Thank you, Mister Atkins,' when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, wait outside';
But it's 'Special train for Atkins' when the trooper's on the tide -
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
Oh, it's 'Special train for Atkins' when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?'
But it's 'Thin red line of 'eroes' when the drums begin to roll -
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
Oh, it's 'Thin red line of 'eroes when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that , an' 'Tommy, fall be'ind,'
But it's 'Please to walk in front, sir,' when there's trouble in the wind -
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
Oh, it's 'Please to walk in front, sir,' when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' 'Chuck him out, the brute!'
But it's 'Saviour of 'is country' when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

Goodness still here?

Just to explain to our Canadian friends.

When our military coffins are brought home, they Land at RAF Lyneham where the families are there to meet them. They are then, still in the charge of the MOD transported in hearses to their home towns where they are repatriated. The families may or may not choose to go to Wootton Bassett a town through which all the coffins are carried on their way to all routes. The families make their own way there.

The people of Wootton Bassett, on every occasion plus The Royal British Legion and some from whichever regiment is represented, line the route. This they have done voluntarily, whatever the weather since the first bodies were repatriated to show their respect for our military. Some of the families choose to join them to lay flowers on the hearse as they pass through.

This is often filmed for the benefit of those unable to go to Wootton Bassett, it is not disrespectful and filming the families will be done with their permission as they wish the rest of us to know how brave their men/women are.

This sort of public display of respect in memoriam dates back to the death of Diana who was Princess of Wales.

morning ann

i see on news other day how they did this for the unnamed soldier too in london, back in the early 1900s,
the one whose stone is in st pauls cathedral,
or is it westminster abbey, im sure its st pauls where diana and charles married,

that unnamed soldier was brought thru london on a horse drawn carriage, hundreds lined the streets,

i think its lovely mark of respect, and for those family there, its a way of saying your back home ,
they cant welcome them home off a plane in their arms with a hug,
its all they can do , and much needed by a loving mum dad wife or girlfriend
then theres their friends

I didn't realise that about the unknown soldier Julie Ann, but I agree with you why they do it. I think the people of Wootton Bassett are marvellous letting the families know they are not alone in their grief, it must help them enormously.

It is strange that it started happening because the British are not know for outwardly showing their feelings but I think it is a good thing.

me too,

the grief must be horrendous
you jsut want to show your support dont you
support them in thier grief,

some are so dignified, its quiet (i cant think of the word,)
but i know i couldnt be dignified, id be in a heap

I think it was the bomb disposal soldier's widow, just can't recall his name at the moment, she was so dignified and she spoke of her husband with such pride. She was mentioned in the paper, I think she said she was brave because he was brave.

olaf,
i cant remember his surname
scmit maybe

christina,
she was just like an officers wife, dignified,
i watched her online on news channel,
she talked lovely,
then i saw her with i think olafs brother he had red roses at cenotaf, last week,
she turned to a friend behind her in wooton bassett, asked them something and took the red rose they were holding,and laid it on the car carrying olaf, they were in army uniform too, the way they supported her was great,
bless her, he was so handsome,

Oh thanks yes that is right Olaf Schmit

JaneyCanuck

For reasons of your own you chose to ignore the point of my post... You may well have fought Saddam Hussein for two decades with your legal shenanigans from the safely of Canada, but it was only when the US/UK soldiers arrived in Iraq that the problem was finally solved. But you are too blinkered to accept that fact, aren't you?

Thanks for the history lesson, but you refute that Red Indians scalped settlers? Well, well. How's that for denial!

"Solved the problem"? By killing a whole lot of innocent people, destroying their society's infratructures, generating hatred for the west and providing a battlefield for its enemies, puring billions and billions of whatever currency you like into doing all that while people in the US, in particular, die for lack of health care, and creating a situation of insecurity and conflict unlikely to end anytime in the near future.

Whom shall I congratulate????

I guess I can always congratulate you on the nasty stupidity of your first post. I think you pretty much outdid anyone yet in this thread.


Whatever a greenpen is and whatever it's talking about ... hey, welcome. There's always room for more incivil incoherency.


It certainly is interesting that the nastiest posts in this thread have come from men. I can think of a number of obvious reasons.

Why does Sylvia keep deleting her threads,,,are you a coward ?