General Chat

I note the singular absence of response to anything I have said in elaboration of my views -- about my British grandfather's deeds in Northern Ireland, about the abuses committed by British troops in Iraq (shall I tell you about the Canadian troops who tortured a Somali teenager to death?) ... about the poets and students and lawyers who have died in the service of humanity.


The fate of the thread is not up to me. Out of an impulse for self-preservation, I might delete my posts. The enemies of free speech are among us.

I don't think it is soldiers as such but society in general is to blame. We elect a Government and we let them do whatever they want even if it is against the will of the people ie send soldiers to Iraq etc.

The Government tells us what to do and yet aren't we their employers?

Tiananmen Square massacre.....

Led mainly by students and intellectuals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989



Like I said Janey, I did agree with you on many of your points but then again there are (some) soldiers we need to thank for giving/risking their lives. If they hadn't we may be speaking German.

Janey, you are using specifics to generalise about soldiers.

I didn't agree with the poet's? generalisation either but I standby my original statement on the deleted thread that the quote wasn't the most offensive thing that I've seen this week.

Janey Canuck: "Soldiers join the military by choice."

Some may join because they feel that's the only way they get a chance at a decent life.

I can't answer about your grandfather's "activities" because I don't know about that part of history, certainly not enough to comment on.

I do think Janey that there are more heroic actions than atrocities but we accept that there have always been bad things that have gone on and we, the general public, were appalled at the actions of the few soldiers in Iraq that committed these crimes. And they were punished for it. The military personnel are human beings and as such there will always be bad ones among them, and those damaged by the theatre in which they find themselves but, especially where Afghanistan is concerned, there have been far more selfless acts than atrocities.

SRS


I AM NOT GENERALIZING ABOUT ANYONE OR ANYTHING.

For the love of anything you hold holy, for the love of Mike, for pity's sake, will you stop misrepresenting me?

I am USING SPECIFICS to REBUT the generalizations.

I am not going to "thank a soldier" for anything and everything I enjoy by way of rights, freedoms, security or material benefits.

Not any random soldier. Not every soldier. Not soldiers in general.

Some soldiers do apalling things. They get no thanks from me.

Many NON-SOLDIERS do wonderful, honourable, marvellously unselfish things, and they get thanks from me.

They got NO THANKS from the author of the tripe I found offensive. They got nothing but DISHONOUR and DISRESPECT from the author of that tripe.

"Some may join because they feel that's the only way they get a chance at a decent life."

That was one of the first things I said in the deceased thread.

It is particularly true in the US, and I made that point. There are people there who grow up in ignorance, who have no opportunities, and who are enticed into the military by exploiting those basic facts of their lives.

Thanking people like that is a hollow, empty gesture.

What they need, and what they DESERVE, is an education, a job, a decent place to live, healthcare -- without having to risk their lives in the service of the very people and corporations who have made sure they have none of those things.

It's the people who work for all those things and more who deserve the soldiers' thanks, frankly.

Janey, will you stop "shouting at me"....there really is no need. I was enjoying this debate and normally have a lot of respect for you but won't be bothering in future.

Janey Canuck: "What they need, and what they DESERVE, is an education, a job, a decent place to live, healthcare -- without having to risk their lives in the service of the very people and corporations who have made sure they have none of those things."

Totally agree with you there Janey but it isn't going to happen. It isn't in the interests of those corporations or the government.

However, I do have to partially disagree with you about some soldiers. Some do deserve our thanks and a lot more besides, such as counselling when they come back from these war zones having seen atrocities I can't even imagine. Yes, I know I'm going off topic a bit there.

I don't think I've said this because I got side tracked (happens very easily lol) but I can see your point of view on the poem that was posted.

Could you possibly give me a link to the thread the poem is on. Saves me searching for it.

Eastern DR Congo: Surge in Army Atrocities

UN Peacekeeping Force Knowingly Supports Abusive Military Operations

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/11/02/eastern-dr-congo-surge-army-atrocities

A bit more up to date.

Please try to keep it civilized, it is an interesting debate but I don't want to see it deteriorate.

I agree that they should not have to join the military as a last resort Janey but the fact is they do, we can still appreciate the good things that some do. Maybe it is the first chance they have had to shine, maybe in civilian life they would have been thugs and rogues. Maybe some of them don't outgrow that in the military but a lot do. For some it is the making of them. I also think, when you refer back to evil things done by the Black and Tans etc, it was a different world maybe, they lived by different morales. For us we can really only focus on the here and now. What about the bomb disposal soldier who disarmed 64 bombs before being killed by the 65th are we not allowed to thank him for saving all those lives? Just one example and that is what people think about when they enter the discussion now because that is foremost in their thoughts. that is why they get upset when they see the military disrespected.

Sorry, http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1184776&px=1

It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.

It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.

It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.

It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

by Charles M. Province


It's all over the right-wing blogosphere.


I really, really, really have not said there are no soldiers who deserve thanks. Sometimes thanks from third parties, sometimes from us.

To say that Garcia Lorca does not deserve thanks for freedom of speech, or that the lawyers in Colombia do not deserve thanks for the right to a fair trial (if Colombians ever get it), or the campus organizers and activists do not deerve thanks for the freedom to protest (where does a right or freedom go if no one exercises it when it needs exercising?), that is the height of offence.

And that is what that tripe does.

Soldiers deserve many things. Some, and sometimes, pity, compassion, thanks, honour, respect, medical care, pensions, etc. etc. And some, and sometimes, contempt.

Thanks are sometimes undeserved, sometimes hollow; and sometimes well-deserved; and sometimes sincere.

Janey, I missed your post and so will now respond to 'Come out you Black and Tans" which I can sing without looking at the words, along with " Men behind the wire" " James Connolly" etc.

No you are right in that the role of soldiers in NI , the role of soldiers in Southern Ireland before home rule is nothing to be proud of. My ancestry on one side is irish, Fenian ...rebel to the core... the role of soldiers in Eire has stunk since the days of Elizabeth 1st as has the history of 'most' of the English there over the centuries ( not all by any means though) .

I watched the Troubles , as most of my generation did ( I am a bit young for Vietnam to have the same 'relevance', Ireland being closer to home ) , from protecting the Catholic community in the first instance to being targets for the IRA, and making targets OF the IRA...I have seen both sides of that conflict... all I can say with impunity on the matter is that not all the soldiers who served there , did so with hatred... nor that it was an easy conflict to resolve, there being atrocities on both , all, sides .

But there is now a level of peace which I had thought not to see in my life time .... times move on and we do the best we can, the soldiers do the best they can ( for the majority that is the case) .

It seems unlikely that there will be 'peace' in Iraq, or Afghanistan ...but yet it may come.

Unfortunately there is no way to convey emphasis, which is sometimes needed, on this primitive board. Please interpret capitals as italics, bold or underline, as you choose.

Actually in the same e mail that I received the poem Janey dislikes so much there was another one, it was an email about Remembrance day.

THE FINAL INSPECTION

The soldier stood and face God,
Which must always come to pass.
He hoped his shoes were shining,
Just as brightly as his brass.

'Step forward now, you soldier,
How shall I deal with you ?
Have you always turned the other cheek ?
To My Church have you been true?'

The soldier squared his shoulders and said,
'No, Lord, I guess I ain't.
Because those of us who carry guns,
Can't always be a saint.

I've had to work most Sundays,
And at times my talk was tough.
And sometimes I've been violent,
Because the world is awfully rough.

But, I never took a penny,
That wasn't mine to keep...
Though I worked a lot of overtime,
When the bills got just too steep.

And I never passed a cry for help,
Though at times I shook with fear.
And sometimes, God, forgive me,
I've wept unmanly tears.

I know I don't deserve a place,
Among the people here.
They never wanted me around,
Except to calm their fears.

If you've a place for me here, Lord,
It needn't be so grand.
I never expected or had too much,
But if you don't, I'll understand.

There was a silence all around the throne,
Where the saints had often trod.
As the soldier waited quietly,
For the judgment of his God.

'Step forward now, you soldier,
You've borne your burdens well.
Walk peacefully on Heaven's streets,
You've done your time in Hell.'

Author Unknown~

Thank you, Janey.

I've copied and pasted that into word, NOT because I agree with it but because it will make me remember this thread and will make me think.

So how am I meant to interpret FFS Janey? But I don't really need to ask do I?

I suppose we all find different things offensive....

Rose, they are all *examples*.

The fight in WWII was necessary. Essential. Soldiers fought that fight. Some of those soldiers did horrific things.

Canada was in Somalia on a humanitarian mission. A few of our soldiers tortured a teenager suspected of looting (hunger does that) to death. There was a public inquiry that went on and on until it was cut off; there was a prosecution; another prosecution was foiled by the accused's semi-successful suicide attempt. None of that cancels out the fact that it happened. I don't thank those soldiers. They brought shame on my country, and me.

Horrible things are happening in Sudan, Congo ... are our soldiers doing anything? Should we blame them for doing nothing? Of course not. They go where they are sent, not where they choose to go.

If they would choose to go to Sudan or Congo if given a choice, there's nothing they can do about it, so I can't blame them individually any more than myself.

I can blame the ones who exercise their free will and their choice by going to Vietnam or Iraq. **To the extent** that I blame anyone whose free will and choice are to a greater or lesser degree determined by circumstance. Abused children very often become abusive adults; it's not coincidence. Young people with no opportunities in life and little exposure to ideas about politics and international affairs often become soldiers; also not coincidence. Even less coincidence in their case, because they are the very people targeted by the military for recruiting. Sometimes they get sent to Vietnam or Iraq.

It seems I have to keep saying it: not all soldiers are deserving of contempt any more than all soldiers are deserving of thanks.

I was **responding** to a piece of tripe that expressed contempt for the hundreds of thousands of clergy, repoters, poets, etc. etc., who are *not* deserving of anyone's contempt and in fact are very deserving of honour and respect and thanks.

FFS is an expression of exasperation. I thought rather plainly. And for rather obvious reasno. I get exasperated when I am persistently represented as having said something I didn't say, as thinking something I don't think, despite repeated attempts to clarify and rectify any ... impressions.