General Chat

I wonder who here might have said it wasn't down to anyone to make his/her own decisions.

Fer sure it wasn't me!

If someone saw me about to cross a street and realized that I hadn't seen the bus hurtling toward me, I like to think s/he would say "watch out!!" and not just stand there and mutter "oh well, it's her choice" ...

It's something that may have been more "in the news" in Canada than in England.

First Nations communities, we all know, have alcohol problems. Together with the problems that come from families ripped apart in the 50s and 60s, with children forcibly placed in residential schools and denied contact with their families, community and culture, and often abused. They had no parents, they didn't learn how to be parents, so the families and communities that came after have been horribly dysfunctional, and alcohol plays a big role.

Kids with fetal alcohol syndrome have delayed development, and one common characteristic is poor impulse control ... and so they are much more likely to commit crimes, and end up behind bars ... just a miserable, miserable life, and why anyone would want to take that chance, minuscule as it might be for any particular drink she might have, I just dunno. Nobody *needs* to drink anytime, and certainly not during pregnancy. Of course, an alcoholic "needs" to drink, but alcoholics are a whole nother question -- although it sounds like the person described in the opening post may well be one. They can rationalize for England, alcoholics can.


An article about Fetal Alcohol Syndrome / Fetal Alcohol Effects in First Nations communities in Canada.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fniah-spnia/famil/preg-gros/intro-eng.php

"FAS and FAE are birth defects caused by the consumption of alcohol during pregnancy. FAS/FAE is a nation-wide health concern, and it does not discriminate on the basis of race, socioeconomic status, or sex. Because of lack of recognition and diagnosis, it is difficult to be certain how many individuals have FAS/FAE. About one baby out of 500 to 3000 annual live births will have FAS; this is called the incidence of FAS (how often a problem occurs annually).

The incidence of FAS is greater than the incidence of either Down's Syndrome or Spina Bifida. The incidence of FAE is 5 to 10 times higher than the incidence of FAS.

This means that, each year in Canada, somewhere between 123 - 740 babies are born with FAS, and around 1000 babies are born with FAE (based on 370,000 births per year). Prevalence means the number of people in a population that have a problem at a specific point in time. The prevalence of FAS/FAE in high-risk populations, including First Nations and Inuit communities, may be as high as 1 in 5."


Fetal Alcohol Syndrome/Fetal Alcohol Effects

Yes Jean a voice of reasoning.

...... and after all the arguing, informed opinion and debate it is still down to the individual to make their own decisions....at least we can still be thankful we are allowed to do that.... we are aren't we ?

Jean.

lol Janey, quite right...

If anyone doesn't know the 'current thinking' on the subject from the health services in this country ( worldwide) may I recommend a quick google :) a world of information at one's fingertips !

No, Rose, it isn't "just" common sense.

The thing is, with nonsense and uninformed opinion like we see in this thread circulated, how could it be surprising if many woman DON'T know what current research says?

It's information, really, rather than sense. Once one has information, one can decide what to do with it. Ignore it completely, if one likes.

But it's only too obvious how many people don't have information, and pregnant women are as deserving of information as anyone else! If not more so.

For years I had the 'Ostermilk' advice book that my mum was handed when she was pregnant with me...it encouraged the drinking of stout, the eating of raw liver.. and also smoking ( better the mother smokes than gets 'stressed' ) ...I decided never to have a baby lol if I had to do the above!

when I was pregnant I wasn't allowed to have hay fever tablets,( the first time I had ever had hay fever , and have had it ever since ) but no one said I couldn't have the occasional glass of something.

It is just common sense surely? and if someone hasn't got that, then all the nagging in the world will make no difference.

lol Cat :-) It maybe not such a bad thing if it means getting away from it all. I should imagine pregnant women need a lot of support, stress during pregnancy can cause complications and should be avoided.

At the risk of sounding very stupid-I was VERY pregnant when I found out (he'd tucked under my rib cage & various other things didnt change).So I drank & smoked the whole time.
At 6' 2" & at Uni I don't think he suffered & his birthweight was normal.
My mate who had a baby at the same time had a can of Murphys every night-'cause it was supposed to be good & smoked & my Mum had a Mackeson or two when expecting all of us & smoked.

Would I do it differently now-I honestly don't know.There will always be something "bad" but I don't think the majority of Mum's set out to damage the life inside them with their lifestyle,there will always be "something".

Maybe for civility's sake people should not talk nonsense.

The effect of cigarette smoke (and equivalents) is known to be cumulative. The potential effect of any particular alcoholic beverage at any particular stage of pregnancy (yes, early stages are likely the most problematic) is really, simply, just not known.

Oh well. My best friend smoked throughout her third pregnancy and delivered twins weighing a total of over 16 pounds. I guess smoking is good for fetuses.


If a risk CAN BE AVOIDED, why in * would someone not attempt to avoid it? And why would anyone advise that someone else not bother attempting to avoid it?

One shakes one's head, really one does.

think if somebody told me these days I was expecting ( after picking me up of the floor ) I might do the right and wrong stuff,

IF I had been pregnant yrs ago yea I would have had the odd shandy and even spliff after all a lot of you here today didn't come to any harm ........or did you ?

Maybe for safetys sake poregnant women should live in a vacuum for the length of their pregnancy.

No-one has mentioned the effect exhaust fumes can have on the foetus.
After all, cigarettes contain miniscule amounts of the carcenogens in exhaust fumes, but no-one seems particularly bothered by it!!
Maybe, for safety's sake, pregnant women shouldn't go near bus stations or the centre of congested towns.

I often wonder about the new born babies,born to mothers that smoke,
as I understand it the baby IS,, what the mother digests/ingests......
If I asked a smoker how they felt when they were in the throes of packing up smoking,( and I know mine, because i went cold turkey) what must it be like for a new born suddenly deprived of his/her daily nicotine fixes?
would it account for a " Ratty" unhappy child that appears to be well looked after? ie well fed clean dry?

but going cold turkey....????

Bob

my daughter when pregnant wouldn't even take a pill for a headache......

I never drank at all when I was pregnant with both my kids (1995 / 1999 ) (I am a non smoker)

I remember sitting at the Xmas dinner table about four months gone , with a glass of lemonade to go with my meal. My aunt asked me why I couldn't have just a small glass & I said because It wasn't necessary to me having a good time, auntie still argued but i stuck to my guns. I wasn't going to even risk anything going wrong. Needless to say, the lemonade and I got on just fine and I did have a good time regardless.

With both my pregnancies I listened to the latest advice and followed that as I wanted to do my best for my babies. My wants came last each time.

There is always advice which changes from year to year, from pregnancy to pregnancy. One time they say not to drink at all, then they say a glass of this or that wont hurt, (the same goes for the peanut warnings) then they change their minds again which can be confusing .Many women ignore this advice and go along with their female older generations advice as it "worked fine for them and baby turned out OK etc "

Normally the midwife will advise the mother to be on the latest do's and donts at the first appointment. so it really is down to the mother what decision she makes, but i dont like seeing pregnant women drinking and even more so smoking :o((

I would have thought the very odd small glass of alcohol in later months wouldnt make too much impact on the pregnancy (eg a small glass of wine at Xmas ) I think its regular drinking which is more liable to cause damage. Lets face it, how many people go out drinking before they realise they are pregnant ? and those are the vital days and weeks of baby's development.

Also nowadays how do we know someone pregnant sat at a table drinking is not drinking a low / non alcohol version of a drink ??

Many drinks look the same in a glass , unless we have seen the bottle it came out of.

A good point, tanianz. It takes long-term studies for the real extent of a problem to be understood sometimes, and this research just hasn't been underway for long enough for there to be a detailed big picture.

Thankyou Janey I agree entirely
The reason there is conflicting advice is early testing revolved around initial fetal outcome,ie miscarriage low birthweight and fetal abnormality .
what is more modern is the follow up of the neurological effects that can range from subtle to extreme.
however its dressed up alcohol is the leading cause of preventable braindamage in children and it is 100% preventable by complete abstinance
The fetal alcohol disorders societies homepage has lots of info
www.faslink.org/
These guys are on the coalface and they are an excellent source of reliable information

We all know there are people who smoked two packs of cigarettes a day since they were 15, lived to the age of 92 and died when they were run down by a bus.

Now, is this a good reason to advocate that children start smoking at 15?
Is it a good reason not to discourage children from smoking?

I would hardly think so.

What point is there in telling all the tales of "I drank / smoked / went skydiving all the time I was pregnant and my baby was perfect"? -- when WE KNOW that doing those things increases the risk of damage to a fetus?

Is someone telling these tales really advocating that pregnant women drink / smoke / go skydiving?

I will fight to the death for the *right* of a pregnant woman, and anyone else, to do what they want with their own body.

But the fact that it is a person's right (or "choice") to do something does not mean that I advocate doing it, or that it is a good thing to do.

Drinking while pregnant -- even the odd drink with dinner -- is playing Russian roulette with the fetus's health, and eventually the child's and adult's heatlh.

Many children run across busy roads and are none the worse for it. I'm not going to advocate that people allow their children to play in traffic -- and when I had a neighbour who did just that, I bawled her out regularly.

A fetus is not a child, and a pregnant woman is not a mother. But what a pregnant woman does will affect what a child eventually is.

Some women simply do not understand the risk. The risk is there with any single drink a pregnant woman has. No, maggie winchester and others -- "moderation" simply has nothing to do with it. Some people actually are experts. Others talk out their bums, unfortunately, and the really unfortunate thing would be if someone else were influenced by what they say.

It isn't really wise for servers in restaurants to lecture pregnant women about drinking, but friends and family are justifiably concerned and are surely justified in raising the issue, and even pressing it, just as they would if a friend or family member were doing anything else dangerous to themselves or others.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_syndrome#Prevention

"The only certain way to prevent FAS is to simply avoid drinking alcohol during pregnancy. A number of studies have shown that light to moderate drinking during pregnancy might not pose a risk to the fetus, although no amount of alcohol during pregnancy can be guaranteed to be absolutely safe."

Personally I think the choice is with the individual mother Dermot. I had the odd glass during my pregancy and the odd cigarette - but in those days (30 years ago) even doctors smoked and it was only just becoming a worry for pregnant women.

And my son is fine.

My view is that the unborn child does not have a choice as such - how can it? It puts up with whatever the mother decides. In most cases that's fine and in some cases it's not but hey, that's it. Most women carrying a child tend to take care of themselves and the foetus don't they? But giving the foetus a choice? Can't see that working.

Jill

My eldest daughter is 29 this year.
Before I was pregnant, I weighed under 7 stone (I'm 5'3) - not through health reasons, I was extremely fit, ate like a horse, but I had always been small.
When I got pregnant, I was unmarried, (though had been with the father for 6 years - so it was hardly a 'one night stand' LOL) the doctor offered me an abortion - I refused. He then suggested I drink a bottle (just under a pint) of Mackesons a night to 'build me up' - which I did.
I was also an agricultural labourer, apart from walking for miles in a day, leaning down cutting cabbages, I was also (for the first 4 months of pregnancy) lifting half hundred weights of potatoes.
I also suffered very badly from morning sickness and the doctor gave me Debendox.
Oh, and I rode a bike until a week before the baby was born, ate soft cheese, peanuts, cream, unpasteurised milk, my own (unchecked) duck eggs, my own ducks etc etc.
According to the 'experts' of today, my child should have been underweight, suffering from alcoholism, have a lowered intelligence, be asthmatic, have vast allergies and lucky to be alive!!
What were the truly most dangerous things for my baby? Not the stout, not the food, not riding the bike, not the lifting of heavy weights - the most dangerous things to her health were the abortion and the Debendox!
In my 4th month of pregnancy there was a front page spread stating that Debendox was related to Thalidomide! It could cause at the least for the baby's fingers and toes to be foreshortened. What did the doctor say? 'Do you want an abortion!!'

As it turned out she wasn't particularly small at 6lb 4oz, (bearing in mind my frame) has been perfectly healthy, has normal fingers and toes, has no allergies (and was give unpasteurised milk from the age of 2 - when she stopped breastfeeding).
Both she and her younger sister survived sleeping in bed with their (sober)parents. She has gone on to have 2 healthy children herself.
Her younger sister didn't have the benefit of stout (or Debendox!) or he mother hauling vast weights about - but I ate the same and still cycled (with elder child either on my back or in a seat) I drank 2 small glasses of Baileys a night with her!
She's a BSc.

'Experts' are always coming out with 'theories' on what's best - after all they need to justify their existence and get their research funding - so any cock and bull claptrap will do if it keeps the dosh rolling in!!
As in all things - moderation is best!