General Chat

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/5278989/Seal-products-banned-in-Europe.html

I found this article from the Daily Telegraph rather an interesting read in as much as the traditional native folk should still be able to hunt the seals ( well that's my understanding ) .
I thought it strange that the article began with the mention of the old " spiked clubs " ( if that is supposed to be a thing of the past ? )

Eldrick I was aware that a cull of seals does and can happen in Gt Britain ( given the population of Grey seals have suffered great losses from the distemper virus over the last few years I'm not certain that it has occurred lately ).

Janey..........the post card I mentioned before ( smug Canadian minister ? buisness man ? in ware house of pelts )......well I do believe it as it was sent to me years ago and I saw it with mine own eyes.

Amanda

Hi Eldrick
I take it that comment is not aimed at me and it is for a previous poster ? :)))
Tricia xx

lol

I wont lower myself to your level by throwing insults when you haven't got a case to put. I would rather retain the high moral and intelectual ground than descend to your level of post office pension queue debate - sorry, wrong word. You can't debate because you don't have sufficient knowledge to do it, hence your resorting to crude insults and jibes.

Pretty much par for the course for the loony left animal rights activists. All talk and no knowledge.

Janey
Thankyou for a well informed thread.
Coming from a family of Fellmongers/Skinners on one side and a great uncle who was the manager of the local abbatoir for many a year. Also my Uncle and two cousins worked there.
I understand what has to be done to earn a living and feed and clothe nations, has to be done.
They can hardly build office blocks and become "financial institutions" or open supermarket superstores in such Icebound lands can they? They utilise what is to hand.
It is not an easy life but it is their way of life I for one don't know what the answer is.
Anywhere,Any place, any scene that involves blood looks horrific.
We all know pictures can be deceiving too.

Yeterdays news told us about a school that has a little farm.The children learn about the animals then the pigs were killed made into sausages bacon etc. The chickens were used for the eggs then for the pot. That is teaching them what happens and how we get our food and how we survive.
Some parents are now up in arms it seems.?

We have become too "soft".

Tricia x

Eldrick,

you are full of it arent you:-))

Your probably as weak as the tea I have in my hand off the computer,you see Im not;-)))
well Im off now I have a busy day ahead planning more propaganda;-)))

*kisses hugs and buckets of it*

Yep, I've seen seal hunts. Many times.

I've also seen totally legal seal hunts in the UK. Bet you didn't know that happened, did you. Education required, I suspect.

Yes, I prefer to learn from direct experience rather than regurgitate the same tired old propaganda from the loony cash grabbing animal rights groups. Try googling the activists in the Canadian anti seal hunting lobby and see the in-fighting and money grabbing, the self enrichment and deception of the leading lights, all blindly funded by donations from well meaning and sentimental people, mostly from outside Canada.

So, I don't need educating, my little propagandist. I am not blind to the facts nor the big picture :-)

Daily sport? I thought that was all boobsnbum's.

Daily Sport,whats that? you are obviously familiar with it enlighten me please.

I dont read news papers,I find them far to Bigoted,I prefer to get my Information Direct.
When have you seen a seal hunt Eldrick?? or are you just going by what the Bigoted papers are saying who are pro hunt.
Educate yourself Dear!!

I would come along regardless. The pleasure in 'talking' to someone who has the ability to string more than two words together and hold a conversation that doesn't consist of re-hashed watery eyed dogma, who can figure something out by themselves and who isn't dependant on the Daily Sport for their twisted arguments, who doesn't bear the irrational burden of fanatical over sentimentality for animals and who is able to articulate a discussion to a far higher degree than someone who merely posts abuse when someone has an alternative viewpoint......


Deep breath....

Yes, I know who's company I prefer! :-)

Oh Janey:-)) or Katherine/Catherine or whatever!

Feeling lonely on this thread:-)) dont worry Im sure Eldrick will be along in a minute to keep you company.

Bue Bye have a niceday.
*blows kiss*

To be honest, I haven't read the whole thread yet :-) Will do when get home.

However, I'm just waiting for some higher being to club us inhumanely to death because of our rising population. Mind you, I don't think we will be cute enough.

Found I still had the tab open for the site I couldn't find again.

This site has a POV. Take it with however much salt you want, but recall that no one else's unsubstantiated assertions trump it.

http://www.thesealfishery.com

http://www.thesealfishery.com/articleView.php?id=34&page=0⊂=1&status=2

_______________________________________________________________

Skinning Alive
This is one of the most ridiculous and nefarious of the many outrageous statements made by the animal rights movement and, sadly, one that the media “buys into’ without ever researching the myriad of reputable international and domestic studies that show that sealing is simply an outdoor abattoir. An abattoir like any licensed abattoirs throughout western society where the killing is conducted in a proper and humane fashion.

Animal rights fanatics recognize two important facts when propagating this slander. First: the majority of urban people have never seen their food or clothing killed and are repulsed by the optics of killing: all killing not just seals. Second: dead seals continue to wiggle and move in much the same way that a chicken with its head cut off continues to run about. Third: video/images can in and of itself portray things as they are NOT and when coupled with carefully chosen narration can reinforce any message the producer wishes to convey: moving or still pictures do not lie is one of the great fallacies and this has been known by propagandists since the 19th century.

The movements many animals make when dead are simply reflex actions and do not indicate that the animal is alive.

As any abattoir worker or hunter will explain to you, based upon experience, that skinning an animal is difficult enough when they are dead and near impossible to do when they are alive. Additionally, common sense tells you that when the value of the pelt depends on the quality (straight cuts improve the value) it makes no sense to ruin a pelt by trying to skin the animal alive. Unless, of course, you accept the animal rights fanatic’s contention that sealers are some kind of barbarian sub-humans and not your neighbours who live in the villages and towns strung along shores of the North Atlantic Ocean, the Bearing and Arctic Seas. And the same condemnation applies to your neighbours who work in abattoirs, hunt or slaughter animals on farms throughout Canada, the USA and Europe. Not to mention those hired by the governments of the above-mentioned societies to kill animals determined to be pests by urban dwellers.

Study after study by reputable, international veterinarians have shown time after time that skinning alive is a lie perpetrated by so called independent studies conducted, paid for and written by the staff members of animal rights groups and never peer group reviewed for methodology or accuracy.

What looks ugly is not wrong. If ugly is portrayed as wrong and pretty is portrayed as right there is a large segment of the world’s human population which needs to seek cover. Ugly and pretty have no moral value, they are simply in the eye of the beholder.

_____________________________________________________________


Anyone who has ever read the similar 'arguments' of the anti-choice brigade should appreciate that last part.

Abortions aren't pretty. Neither is heart surgery or limb amputation.

The seal cull is no less pretty than any commercial slaughterhouse.

Maggie: "Commercial cattle slaughter is carried out in controlled conditions to ensure the least suffering to the animal."

Have you bothered to learn anything at all about the modern seal hunt?

"True you can't be sure how much the animal suffers, but in an abbatoir the animal will be stunned and it's throat cut - a quick process."

If you had, you would not think that this was a meaningful statement.

That is EXACTLY WHAT IS REQUIRED in the seal hunt. How many times do I have to direct you to sources that establish this?

"it certainly won't be left for 20 minutes to die."

I'll be waiting for proof that no abuses occur in slaughterhouses. I think I'll be waiting until not just the Gulf of St Lawrence has frozen over.

"I would have more sympathy with the cullers if they actually made some sort of 'show' of caring about the environment and eating the seal meat."

And I would have some respect for you if you stopped saying things that are not true, i.e. that seal hunters do not eat seal meat.


Oops, I see you edited, so I will too:

"I would have more sympathy with the cullers if they actually made some sort of 'show' of caring about the environment the situation of the seals and utilising the seal meat."

What evidence do you have that seal hunters do NOT care about the environment or the situation of the seals, whatever that means?


"I realise times may be harsh for them, but there are other ways of making money."

Perhaps you could suggest some for them. Preferably some means that doesn't involve closing down their centuries-old communities and abandoning their generations-old way of life. You may not care, but they do. How odd of them.

Commercial cattle slaughter is carried out in controlled conditions to ensure the least suffering to the animal. True you can't be sure how much the animal suffers, but in an abbatoir the animal will be stunned and it's throat cut - a quick process. It won't be hacked about the head and left while the next ones are hacked - it certainly won't be left for 20 minutes to die.
The non-breeding season lasts a lot longer than one month - we're talking seals here, not rabbits!
I personally don't eat veal, but at least more than the skin of the lamb/calf is used.
I wear leather and I eat meat - the whole animal was utilised and it was killed in a controlled environment.
In these days of being 'environmentally friendly' I would have more sympathy with the cullers if they actually made some sort of 'show' of caring about the environment the situation of the seals and utilising the seal meat. I realise times may be harsh for them, but there are other ways of making money.

My comparison to commercial cattle slaughter was intended to raise the question of what assurance we have that no animal ever suffers in the slaughter process, and no breaches of the protocol ever occur. If *you* do the research, I know you will find these not to be true.

"why don't they kill the seals before the breeding season?"

Perhaps you would like to spend some time on the North Atlantic / Gulf of St Lawrence in February.

Yes, the cubs are desirable for their fur.

Kinda like lambs and calves are for their meat.

I'm not seeing a huge distinction.

People don't need to wear fur. And people don't need to eat meat.

...So why was one filmed dying for 20 minutes?
and - to get back to my previous point, why don't they kill the seals before the breeding season?
That'll be because they are killing the cubs for fur, not because of the fish stocks, and wasting the seal meat:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/world/Canada-defends-its--39humane39.5100890.jp

"So they never use the pick thingy to kill the seals then ?..........can you be certain of that ?"

I give up, Amanda.

Are you saying they did? Would you like to produce some evidence of that assertion, if that is what you are saying?

Since the assertion would not even make sense, I can't imagine that it is what you are saying.


Maggie: "The pertinent point in the above is the phrase:
the arteries are cut causing the animal to quickly bleed to death.
Note the word QUICKLY."

Does no one here have google?

Does no one here have the integrity to find out what they are talking about before making insinuations that attribute despicable characteristics to people they know nothing about?

I have to go find what I want all over again, because dear Roxanne deleted the thread in which I had offered the relevant link.

... Well, can't find the source I had earlier. The petty gall of people who delete what other people have posted on the net never ceases to amaze me.


http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/seal-phoque/myth-eng.htm

"Recent changes to the Marine Mammal Regulations (MMR) will enhance the humaneness of the annual seal hunt. These changes include the three-step process (stunning, checking, and bleeding the seals); and require sealers to verify death and animals being bled for a minimum of one minute prior to skinning."

Again: what difference are we seeing between the seal hunt and commercial cattle slaughterhouses?

Please do read the above link on the issue of fish stocks and for other info.


Some quick and easy actual facts:

http://www.sealharvest.ca/html/facts_myths.html


Amanda:
"I remember back in the 70s getting a nasty post card from the Canadian ( what ever dept responds to petitions ) " government ? " , it depicted a bloke sitting in a warehouse with pallets of seal skins behind him with the words " we will carry on the slaughter even if the pelts sit and rot " ( I might not be word for word there as it was long ago but I'm sure you get the gist )."

If you actually believe that, I think I am spitting in the wind.

And of course, you do remember that in the 70s, the English were still hunting foxes in that charming, ever so humane way they had ...

Janey,
I thought the seals went on to the ice to kill the seals - therefore guns could be used.
If they are killing the seals because they eat fish stocks - wouldn't it be more practical to kill (by shooting) adult males & females of breeding age - you know kill them out of the breeding season like most hunters do?

So they never use the pick thingy to kill the seals then ?..........can you be certain of that ?

I remember back in the 70s getting a nasty post card from the Canadian ( what ever dept responds to petitions ) " government ? " , it depicted a bloke sitting in a warehouse with pallets of seal skins behind him with the words " we will carry on the slaughter even if the pelts sit and rot " ( I might not be word for word there as it was long ago but I'm sure you get the gist ) .

It isn't necessarily about the fur , I think that theses days it's more about the fish that are left in the sea..............and that's not many : (

I'm off to bed now , thanks for the stimulation .

You answer your query yourself:

"Most cattle are stunned with a captive bolt pistol where a bolt strikes the head of the animal and renders it unconscious. The unconscious animal is then hung by one leg then arteries are cut causing the animal to quickly bleed to death. Next the animal is skinned, inspected, and then processed."

The pertinent point in the above is the phrase:
the arteries are cut causing the animal to quickly bleed to death.
Note the word QUICKLY.

Recently, in 2007, the famous Rebecca Aldworth, whom I mentioned earlier, also showed up on the ice off the Magdalen Islands to take pictures. At one point, she saw a bloody seal that was not yet dead. For 20 minutes, she filmed that suffering animal, never thinking for a second to put an end to its agony by killing it.

Why should a reporter do the job of a hunter?
that seal had been left to suffer by the hunter - THAT was what Rebecca was filming.