General Chat

Couldn't get back any earlier - had to go to work.
Not sure who Eldrick was referring to in his first post on page as upt until them it had mainly been Janey and I.
Is the 'Daily Post' on sale in Canada? I certainly don't read it, I have a reading age above 8!
As for his preferance for 'talking to someone who has the ability to string more than two words together and hold a conversation that doesn't consist of re-hashed watery eyed dogma' - it's okay (in Eldricks opinion) to post re-hashed propaganda supporting this type of culling from dodgy sites then is it?

BTW, I have kept animals - killed them and eaten them. I certainly don't have an 'over sentimentality' towards animals.

Suffice to say his rather oblique comments have probably had the effect he desired - which is as clear as mud to the rest of us.

Janey,
You still haven't come up with a reason the seals aren't killed during the non-breeding season.

That came from Sea Shepherd too, I suppose. Guess I'll have to google again ...

"The resolution noted that more than one million seals have been killed during the past five years, 95 percent of them pups between 12 days and 12 weeks of age. That means that many seals were slaughtered before they had even eaten their first solid meal or taken their first swim."

Actually, it means that I'm still being breastfed and use a wheelchair to get around.

After all, I'm between 120 days and 120 years of age.

The resolution can note that the sky is purple with orange polka dots, for all I or anybody who cares about truth cares.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/seal-phoque/faq-eng.htm#q9

"9. How old must seals be before hunters can take them?
Seals cannot be legally hunted until they have moulted their first coats and are living independently from their mothers. Seals are not usually hunted until they reach the "beater" stage of development at around 25 days old. "

And before anybody gets all weepy and teary, "beater" refers to what they do to the water with their tails.

Since seals are abandoned by their mothers by the age of 2 weeks (or did you have some facts to refute that one?), they are NOT killed "before they had even eaten their first solid meal or taken their first swim". (Seals do not "take swims". People do that. Swimming is not a recreational activity for seals, it is a means of locomotion and food gathering.)

So what the US Congress has "noted" is a pack of lies, or, if we are to be kind, a pack of sentimentalized ancient history with no relevance to the seal hunt today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-555209/Shock-pictures-Is-Canadian-government-means-humane-slaughter.html

They may not be killing the " white coats" any more but it certainly seems as if some evidence is being gathered that the hunters are not following the new " humane" regulations .

Oh Eldrick!
you smooth talker!
you must really be feeling angry, how about a cup of weak tea to settle you.

Saturday, May 09, 2009
Sea Shepherd, LUSH, and Canadian Senator Harb Join Forces to End Seal Hunt
On March 16, 2009, Sea Shepherd and LUSH Handmade Cosmetics launched a hard-hitting North American campaign to end Canada's controversial seal slaughter. LUSH is the first company in Canada to take a national stand on this issue. Postcard petitions against the Canadian commercial seal hunt were distributed at all participating LUSH stores.

On May 2, 2009, Development Director, Alex S. Earl, met with representatives of LUSH Handmade Cosmetics in Vancouver, British Columbia, at the Robson Street LUSH store to hand over 38,015 signed postcard petitions to Canadian Senator Mac Harb. Senator Harb took possession of these signed postcard petitions with the assurance that each petition will be delivered directly to Canadian Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, at the nation's capitol in Ottawa, Ontario. It has been theorized that politicians regard every complaint they receive as representative of 1,000 voters who share the same opinion. Applying this theory to the signed postcard petitions, Prime Minister Harper and his government would do well to heed the opinion of 38,015,000 voters across North America.

The Canadian commercial seal hunt is currently the world's largest slaughter of marine mammals. Senator Harb has worked tirelessly to end this hunt. He introduced legislation in March which if passed would amend The Fisheries Act. While no other Senator backed his proposal to put this bill to a vote in the Canadian Senate, Senator Harb stands alone as the only Canadian politician since the 1970's to openly speak out against this annual slaughter.

A global movement against Canada's seal hunt is reaching a tipping point. The United States, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Ireland have complete bans of the importation of Canadian seal products. On May 5, 2009, the European Union voted to ban the sale of seal products in the 27-nation EU. The world's sealing nations, with Canada's hunt being the largest, are now more isolated by global opinion than ever. With few commercial markets remaining open, the end of the seal hunt is near. It is the profound hope of Sea Shepherd, LUSH, and Senator Harb that the delivery of these petitions, combined with the EU vote, will help to end this hunt once and forever.

Roxanne, you really are a nasty piece of work, aren't you.

Because your arguments are based on ignorance, party politics and propaganda and you don't have the knowledge to debate, you resort to abuse and snidiness.

How juvenile. How pathetic. How typical of here.

Monday, May 11, 2009
United States Senate Condemns the Canadian Seal Slaughter
One would think that Canada should be getting the message by now. The rest of the world deplores this obscenity called the Canadian seal hunt.

First, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin called it a bloody industry and shut down sealing operations in Russia. Then, the European Parliament passed a Bill to ban all seal products (read the text of the Bill here). Now, Canada's pathetic efforts to overturn the U.S. Marine Mammal Protection Act has been halted by the passing of U.S. Senate Resolution 84 on May 7th, 2009 that calls for an immediate end to the Canadian commercial seal hunt.

This historic vote came just days after the European Union voted by a huge margin to ban the import of seal products from Canada.

"The Canadian politicians are making total fools of themselves with their whining attempts to defend a barbaric industry that the rest of the world is disgusted with," said Captain Paul Watson.

The bi-partisan U.S. Senate resolution was sponsored by Senators Carl Levin (D-Michigan) and Susan Collins (R-Maine).

"It is truly gratifying that the U.S. Senate has passed this resolution," said Sen. Levin. "Canada needs to understand that the rest of the world will not stand by and allow this slaughter to continue. Ten countries have now either banned trade in seal products or have indicated their intentions to do so and the European Union has just enacted a prohibition on seal product trade."

Sen. Collins said, "International opinion, as well as the opinion of the vast majority of Canadian citizens, is overwhelmingly in favor of ending the Canadian seal kill. We strongly encourage the government of Canada to bring this inhumane slaughter to an end."

The resolution noted that more than one million seals have been killed during the past five years, 95 percent of them pups between 12 days and 12 weeks of age. That means that many seals were slaughtered before they had even eaten their first solid meal or taken their first swim.

With the market for seal products devastated, Canada is now considering subsidizing the kill for the sake of killing seals.

Captain Watson and the Sea Shepherd staff and crew are delighted with the passing of the Senate Resolution.

"If my country wishes to host the 2010 Winter Olympics with dignity, the government must put an end to this nonsense of defending the cruelty of a massive seal slaughter that contributes nothing to the Canadian economy and is a source of extreme embarrassment to millions of Canadian," said Captain Watson. "Speaking as a Canadian from the Maritimes, I can only say that I have opposed this bloody obscenity all of my life and it is with anger and sadness that I have watched my government kiss the rear ends of savage baby seal killers for decades. This slaughter is a perversion and a crime against humanity and nature and it must be ended once and for all."

Oh Kathryn,what a sensitive soul you are!!

I really dont care what your real name is,your probably Eldrick too:-))

heres the link http://www.seashepherd.org/seals/seal-hunt-facts.html

your really on a no winner here,dear!

Amanda: "I was not retracting that the post card came from the Canadian Government"

Your choice.

Ah, Rose! -- "in front of it's distressed mother"

That leads directly to what I was about to post about this whole "baby seal" business.

http://www.thesealfishery.com/facts2.php

Again, it is a site with a POV that I am not requiring anyone to share, and anyone else is free to find competing facts if they wish to look.

"By late February to early March the females(cows) haul themselves onto the pack ice and stake a claim to an adequately sheltered area for giving birth. Newborns(pups) weigh about 11kg(24.3 lbs) and are roughly 85cm(2.8 feet) in length. Harp seal pups are one of the fastest growing mammals and have a yellow color coat at birth at which time they are aptly named 'Yellowcoats'. Within three days the coat turns to a pure white when they are renamed to 'Whitecoats'. Along with their rapid growth comes a rapid child rearing. They only nurse for about 2 weeks before being abandoned by the mother to fend for themselves but over this period gain a remarkable 24kg(52.9 lbs). After the constant care of the first two days, the pups have little contact with the mother. Most of the mother and pup time together being for nursing which takes place roughly six times a day for ten minute periods. Over three quarters of the pups time is spent sleeping.

After the pup is abandoned it begins to moult(shed) its coat, now called a 'Raggedy-Jacket', which over an eighteen day period is replaced with a silver colored coat with small dark spots. During this time the pups will not eat and will continue to do so for roughly another two weeks by which time they will lose about 10kg(22 lbs). While this is happening the breeding season has taken place and the adult seals begin to moult, roughly around the beginning of April. Shortly after the pups are abandoned by the female she is courted by suitable males and breeding commences."


Let's try to get out of the 1970s, shall we?

Whitecoats are no longer legal to hunt. Haven't been for 22 years.

Seals do not live in happy nuclear families with mummy and daddy constantly watching over their little ones. By the time the pups are killed by sealers in the present day, they are independent.

http://www.thesealfishery.com/articleView.php?id=35&page=0&sub=1&status=2

"Before birth the female seal, cow, is highly aggressive toward any seal which happens to come close to her birthing patch. After birth she will continue to protect the area, not the young but the area fore this is her place of rest. She demonstrates a lack of protection for the young by leaving it for long periods of time and only returning to rest herself or feed the pup which occurs approximately six times a day. Even during these times the mother, dame, will only interact with the pup long enough to feed it, after which she displays indifference to its existence. It has been reported that only one in roughly one thousand dames will stay to protect their pup when people approach.

While the pup is alone it will fight with any other pups which happen to wander close. They do not frolic and enjoy each others company. In reality, harp seals are indifferent to the existence of other seals and display more annoyance at their company rather than enjoyment. Just because an animal has a herd designation does not mean it is a highly social creature. Mainly, the only exception to this rule is during breeding season and interaction under water such as feeding.

Harp seals have one of the shortest maternal nurturing periods of any marine mammal. At about 12 to 15 days old the pup is abandoned by its dame. The pups soon begin to moult and are referred to as a “raggedy jackets”. At this point sealers can kill them but prefer to wait until the new fur is “fast”, roughly 33 days old. After the pup has been abandoned by its dame and it becomes acclimated to the water, it heads north with the rest of the herd. It is an individual and does not rejoin its dame or have any type of family structure."

"I think we can all use Google,Janey,but not all googled items are facts either are they?"

Duh, eh?

So you proceeded to give a demonstration!

"After decades of this mismanagement and the resulting collapse of the East coast cod industry, the Canadian DFO has declared war on the seals in hopes that massive seal kills will bring back the cod and keep their disgruntled fishermen working."

Good one! Excellent illustration of stuff you find on the internet that isn't quite fact.


"The Canadian government looks for as many avenues as possible to profit from their annual, government-subsidized slaughter. "

Now, I assume that YOU have the proof of government subsidies to the seal hunt. Actually, I don't, because you don't have any proof, because there are no subsidies. But don't let that stop you copying and pasting lying propaganda.

How can the government both subsidize and profit from the seal hunt?

You do realize this doesn't make any sense at all, right?


"Seal meat is generally considered to be inedible and unfit for human consumption."

Really? Maybe by effete Europeans.

Tell it to the Aboriginal peoples and the descendants of European settlers in maritime Canada, who have been eating and enjoying seal meat for generations.


"Seal oil contains bioaccumulative PCBs. "

Huh. You mean like have been found in beef and pork in Ireland?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/
Ireland-Contaminated-Pork-Scare-Spreads-To-Beef-After-PCBs-Found-In-Cattle-Herds/
Article/200812215175652

And of course, we know where the seals are getting their PCBs.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=t43H0Djym5UC&pg=PA1264&lpg=PA1264&dq=%22PCBs%22
+seal&source=bl&ots=5DMUgbZftq&sig=R1hFP4Gfd6IbbUpP-k6q7zTn2cY&hl=en&ei=v_sKSpT_
J5LhtgeJ6YijAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=12

Cod. Yup, cod does have much lower concentrations. There are sure some problematic freshwater fish and seafood, though.


"When a Sea Shepherd representative provided the company with information about the sealing industry, and in particular, the killing methods of sealers Costco executives originally promised to pull the capsules but very soon after they changed positions and re-stocked their shelves and continued to sell the product."

Awwww. A corporation didn't roll over and play dead when the anti-seal hunt gang tried to browbeat it with disinformation and intimidation tactics:

"A month later, Costco has reneged on this promise and has mistakenly decided that the interests of one store in Newfoundland are more important than all of Costco's outlets internationally. They announced on the morning of April 5, 2006, that they will resume selling seal oil capsules made from baby harp seals. ... Costco has decided that to save face in one store in Newfoundland, they are willing to call Sea Shepherd's bluff over an international boycott of all Costco outlets worldwide. It is not a bluff. Sea Shepherd is now officially calling for an international boycott of all international Costco retail outlets."

(that's from your source:
http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/news-060405-1.html)


"It is Sea Shepherd's opinion that Canada is misleading consumers by marketing seal oil in the health food industry as a "health" alternative."

Well, it seems Sea Shepherd's opinion is a lie. "Canada" does not market anything.


If that's who you've got -- Sea Shepherd ... well, you choose your own bedmates.

I remember the description (it would have been the daily mail most likely as that was what I used to buy back in the days when the white seal pups were culled ) I can't find it in archives (yet , am still looking) but my memory is still pretty good and I do recall the report that having been clubbed (agreeed the 'spike' is used for dragging carcass) the seal was skinned whilst still warm ( no doubt had to be?) in front of it's distressed mother.... that is something which most animals killed for meat/ products are not subjected too... maternal care and therefore distress is not confined to humans either , I think that 'touched a nerve' with most who read it... that is one of the reasons why the campaign was so successful in gathering support over here ...I do believe that the report was made by a 'neutral' journalist at the time...but cannot now verify that....

But those of a certain age and temperament will recall the description and perhaps that accounts for the strength of feeling IMO.

No Janey.....I was not retracting that the post card came from the Canadian Government............it was an awfully long time ago and sent to me as a response to a letter that I had sent to the Government asking them to stop the seal hunt.

From some of the things that I've read in the past days regarding the Seals and the fur industry it seems that the pelts are also coming into Gt Britain via the back door.

Here's a tip, Roxanne.

When you copy and paste stuff you find on the internet, you give a link to the source.

That way, other people can see where the stuff is coming from, and consider the source.

That's what I do. Any reason why you don't?

If I don't know what the source of unverified statements of fact is, I don't give the claims much consideration. But then, being curious, I generally pick something out of the text and google it to see where it came from. I'll get to that.

Meahwhile: You are a curious one, aren't you? And yet you managed to miss the entire (and multithreaded) discussion about my identity? The changed board name that was in no way concealed from anyone, along with the reasons? The main reason being that no one with sense discloses their identity on the internet, and I had never intended to - I was assigned a board name by this system without realizing it, and without realizing that the system then disclosed my full name to anyone who clicked on my board name. I left it like that for a while (with the addition of descriptive elements to avoid the confusion that had arisen with someone else with the same name), because of a desire not to confuse. My personal security concerns overrode that desire eventually, and I made the switch very publicly. Did you really miss it all? Poor you. But now, could I ask why you seem intent on plastering elements of my identity around the internet, when I have obviously chosen not to do that? Just another bit of spiteful behaviour toward someone who doesn't happen to agree with you about something?

Sea Shepherd has a different take on the selling of seal oil. It is Sea Shepherd's opinion that Canada is misleading consumers by marketing seal oil in the health food industry as a "health" alternative. Seal oil contains bioaccumulative PCBs. A known animal carcinogen, PCBs produce health affects such as skin ailments called chloracne, reproductive disorders, liver disease, and other problems. PCBs are stored in body fat and are also dangerously bioaccumulated in the foodchain. Resistant to degradation, PCBs persist for many years in the environment. What Canada markets as benefits of seal oil is the Omega-3 and essential fatty acids - Sea Shepherd recommends these health supplements should be taken in plant form, such as hemp and flaxseed oils. Unfortunately, in 2006, Costco Wholesale Corporation decided to sell seal oil capsules their store in St. John's, Newfoundland. When a Sea Shepherd representative provided the company with information about the sealing industry, and in particular, the killing methods of sealers Costco executives originally promised to pull the capsules but very soon after they changed positions and re-stocked their shelves and continued to sell the product. [For more information read Costco Cannot be Trusted]

On the other hand, seal meat sales are not going as well for Canada. Seal meat is generally considered to be inedible and unfit for human consumption. While there is a small market in Newfoundland for the seal flippers (for seal flipper pie), most of the rest of the very small amount of meat found in the slaughtered seal, if utilized at all, would be purchased by pet food and fur farm industries. In 2004, only Taiwan and South Korea purchased seal meat.

After decades of this mismanagement and the resulting collapse of the East coast cod industry, the Canadian DFO has declared war on the seals in hopes that massive seal kills will bring back the cod and keep their disgruntled fishermen working. In fact, cod is not a major food source of the harp and hood seal diet. Further, recent evidence suggests that killing seals contributes to bacterial infestation on the ocean floor which leads to hypoxia, a condition in which patches of ocean lose all the dissolved oxygen and are unable to sustain cod or fish or marine life of any kind. However, these facts seem to have been brushed aside by the DFO in their efforts to justify and continue the slaughter.

The Canadian government looks for as many avenues as possible to profit from their annual, government-subsidized slaughter. Currently, Canada exports the following seal products: sealskins (furskins/pelts and leather), seal oil, and seal meat. Unfortunately, due to a revived fashion trend, the demand for seal pelts has sky-rocketed, especially in Europe. Harpseals.org reports that high fashion designers such as Prada and Dolce & Gabbana are selling sealskin apparel. Other companies selling seal fur products include Odette Leblanc Collection, Petit Nordand, and Pajar. Canada sold pelts to 11 countries in 2004 with Norway, Germany, Greenland, and China purchasing the largest quantities. Other buying countries were Finland, Denmark, France, Hong Kong, Greece, South Korea, and Russia.

The fact remains its banned in Europe and thats a start!!

I think we can all use Google,Janey,but not all googled items are facts either are they?
Im sure your aware that a huge % of Canadians are against it too,perhaps you can Google to get the correct %;-))lol

You believe and think what you like, I will believe and think the truth,and obviously a lot of people know the facts because if they didnt this ban would not be happening.




Janey,why have you changed your name? just curious,you are Kathryn(In Canada) arent you?

Amanda, you said the postcard came from the government. You're retracting that?

"spiked club". Please read the description of the tool that I have given more than once.

One side of it has what is being called a "spike" -- a narrow protuberance used to crush the skull. Spike would not actually be the best term for what that part is.

It is exactly the same in design, intent and use as the "stun bolt gun" used in cattle slaughterhouses. And I assume, in fact, that it is more reliable and effective than a firearm - else why would they not use guns in slaughterhouses? (It would also seem quite unwise to have people milling about on ice floes firing off guns.) Why assume that people who have been doing this for centuries haven't figured out the best way of doing it?

The other side of the tool, which is a two-in-one combination for efficiency, is the hook used for moving carcasses - actually a long narrow pointed "spike". I can't imagine why anyone would kill an animal with what is effectively a giant curved nail. I think the design problem there would have been figured out sometime back in the stone age.

The part of the tool used for killing more resembles a hammer head. I offer this site because of the particularly clear picture it has of a hakapik (oh for boards that allow images, or even clickable links ...); it also expresses a POV, and I am not linking to it because I adopt it, although I find it relatively reasonable:

http://necrofiles.blogspot.com/2008/04/moral-panic-surrounding-seal-clubbing.html

The long curved pointed "spike" is *not* the tool used for killing seals, despite what the anti-seal hunt gang may have tried for decades to make people believe.

It's unfortunate that the word itself conjures up images in the English mind that have nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word -- "hack" "pick". I'm not sure what language the word comes from, or what it might mean if it has a meaning other than to designate what it is, but the tool is apparently of Norwegian design.

LWD, I think you can take that as read. ;)

Oh, for a threaded discussion board! People wonder why I'm careful to quote whom/what I'm responding to ...

Thank you for your input. Voices of reason always welcome!