General Chat

Well said Maggie,

Quite simply many people hate any form of barbarism, and yes other forms of cruelty are investigated, I am a vegetarian and have views which i debate in my workplace regarding this issue,

Caz

Unfortunately if anyone dared to post as much 'anti' as you have posted 'pro' they would be deemed to be 'anti' simply because in your and Eldricks opinion they don't know the facts - as it appears only the 'pro' facts on the internet are true, and 'anti' people have all the wrong 'facts' as they are (just) 'fluffy animal huggers', vegetarians, or don't know what they're talking about!

As for it beng traditional - many things that are/were traditonal are/were barbaric - that's why many of our wonderful traditional 'sports' - bear baiting, cock fighting, dog fighting etc are banned!

Just accept that many people dislike the form seal culling takes and you aren't going to disabuse them of their opinion by drowning them in internet links!

Oh dear, Staffordshire Col. You do seem to have missed the whole entire point, don't you?

Perhaps that's because the initial thread was deleted ...

The discussion actually focuses on the European Union's decision to ban seal products.

That isn't a matter of personal choice, lovely though personal choice is.


"As far as pasting lots of information is concerned....I can produce as much anti as I could pro reasons for a seal cull...some folk I guess decide to concentrate on one more than the other lol"

lolol o.l.

I guess some folks prefer to know what the truth is, and not base their opinions of public policy on propaganda and disinformation, myself.

And I'm always glad to point at propaganda and disinformation and show it for what it is.

If someone, knowing the truth, still finds the seal hunt yucky (while continuing to eat commercially slaughtered animals?), that's their choice and they're welcome to it.

People who actually attempt to influence public opinion and thus public policy actually have a responsibility to the public -- not to tell or repeat lies.

Oh, and not to try to influence someone else's opinion by saying nasty things about people they disagree with.

That's called demagoguery, and in fact that is one of the ways tyrants come to power ...

SueM first -- I am starting to get callouses on my forehead.

If I'm wrong and you're not referring to the seal hunt when you said this, let me know: "It's the starkness of blood against the pure white which shocks me"

Whitecoats have not been killed since 1987. I don't know how much clearer I can make that!


Jac --
".........and are killed humanely, if the hunter is in compliance with the licence conditions"
"See, the 'if' in the above sentence rather gives it away rather:"

No, it doesn't give anything away. It is me acknowledging that making a law doesn't make anything so.

Cars drive at no more than 60 mph on motorways, if the drivers are in compliance with speed limits.

We have radar and traffic cops, whose presence is intended to persuade people to obey speed limits, and to charge them - and take away their licences - if they don't.

The Dept of Fisheries and Oceans has fisheries officers for exactly the same reasons.

Unless somebody has evidence of massive violations of licence conditions involving inhumane killing, the "if" is merely reference to the hypothetical possibility that there are violations, and the statistical / human likelihood that there are some.

EXACTLY as there are in commercial abattoirs. There are. Really, there are. There are abuses that go on in commercial abattoirs. People break laws no matter what they are doing or where they are.


"So.....by my reckoning some of the seals are more than likely being subjected to inhumane methods of having their lives extinguished."

Your reckoning, then, can ONLY be based on a belief that some significant proportion of seal hunters will choose to engage in inhumane killing methods if they think they can get away with it.

Could you explain why you believe that?

Do you believe that Canadians have a genetic propensity to want to do what, skin animals alive? When it makes no sense, from the hunter's point of view, to do that?


"Sorry love, despite your and Eldrick's eloquent regurgitation of reading matter"

You know, for all the accusations of "patronizing" leveled against me here, I have not addressed anyone in that way. Perhaps you were being familiar rather than patronizing. Given what you follow it with, I think not.

What you call "regurgitation", I call quoting and citing sources. And every time where it was applicable, I have described the source as having a point of view.

As I have repeatedly invited various people to do: if you dispute what those sources say, please do provide credible information from whatever source you like to disprove it.

Its quite simple isnt it?

you agree with one argument or the other.

Support Canadian businesses, travel to their beautiful country buy their dead seal products etc

or alternatively erm

Don't!

As far as pasting lots of information is concerned....I can produce as much anti as I could pro reasons for a seal cull...some folk I guess decide to concentrate on one more than the other lol

I don't like the culling of baby seals and never will. As this is done in 'public view' it does upset many people especially those who close their minds as to how their food eventually arrives in the small plastic trays in the supermarket. It's the starkness of blood against the pure white which shocks me although I have been at enough blood fests over the years. We all helped out at the 'turkey days' for friends and the flapping and splattering of blood is quite shocking but if you eat it you should take responsibility for killing it IMO. The children were 7, 8 and 9 and helped too.

Our children went to the slaughterhouse with our large beasts but were kept away when I had to kill the rabbits. Although they ate the rabbit, to them they were cuddly bunnies and I didn't want them to be present at the death.

I doubt the opposing sides will ever having any meeting of minds on this subject.

Sue

I'll join you in spitting on Mac Harb Janey - he sounds a nasty piece of work - in fact, a typical politician!

However, after reading some (but not all I admit) of the blurb you recommended, I would take issue with one point you make:-

"..........and are killed humanely, if the hunter is in compliance with the licence conditions"

See, the "if" in the above sentence rather gives it away rather:

The report I read admitted that insufficient inspectors are available to ensure that all the seals ARE killed "humanely" (as defined by the Canadian Vet Authorities and which I still find to be an undesirable method).

So.....by my reckoning some of the seals are more than likely being subjected to inhumane methods of having their lives extinguished.

Sorry love, despite your and Eldrick's eloquent regurgitation of reading matter, I personally still find the methods used to cull seals distasteful. Nowt will convince me otherwise..................but I will join you in spitting on Mac Harb cos quite frankly he sounds worth spitting on.

Jac xxx

just one little quibble Janey (good word quibble ...origin? lol)

"and are killed humanely, if the hunter is in compliance with the licence conditions."

quite so.... but as with abbatoirs here and elsewhere of course that is a moot point.... of course it SHOULD be humane , that is what the regulations require, but is it, always ?

Really, Uggers?

If you can find me anyone in this thread, or elsewhere, who has started out with civil discourse, and been met with something else by me, please do bring it for our consideration.

Perhaps you missed the original thread on this topic, consisting of a long series of vicious and really very bigoted, and completely unfounded, attacks on seal hunters and anyone who doesn't oppose the seal hunt. That thread was deleted by its originator, Roxanne, just as I posted the Hanard excerpts this thread started with. Deleting threads because someone disagrees -- now there's some civil discourse for ya!

If you missed it, perhaps you don't actually know what you're talking about.

Gosh, that would be unusual around here ...

I guess you had some purpose in entering this thread other than to post a baseless personal attack ... civil discourse forever! eh?

Mac Harb -- I retract! I *would* cross the street to spit on him!


Rose -- I wasn't aiming at you, I was aiming at the propagandists.

Whatever the situation was in the 70s and earlier, it isn't now.

And that is what the propagandists very much do not want the world to understand.

The seals that are killed are independent, young as they are, and are killed humanely, if the hunter is in compliance with the licence conditions.


Just some other random bits that may be of interest:


http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2008/2008-02-20/html/sor-dors38-eng.html

- explanation of seal fishery observation licences.
(It's called a fishery because they are covered under the term "marine mammals", like whales.)


http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/npress-communique/2009/hq-ac06-eng.htm

- govt news release about management of the 2009 seal hunt


http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/back-fiche/2009/seal_hunt-chasse_au_phoque-eng.htm

- detailed description of the procedure hunters are required to follow (as I said earlier, essentially identical to the procedure followed in commercial abattoirs)

Oh Janey Janey you are just as guilty of attacking the speaker rather than the argument only you opt to patronise and lecture. Your civil discourse skills ain't all that special.

Still, good to see you exercising your impressive intellect and knowledge on such a worthy forum:)

"Mac Harb" - you dont like the guy then Janye?

sorry only just back Janey...I offered the reply below to illustrate why people who WERE anti sealing in the 70s (God is it really that long ago...I could have sworn I was not old enough...) still have strong feelings that have not dissipated. Not that the situation now is the same as then,

Re " "in front of it's distressed mother" I was not I think being (certainly not intending to be ) 'anthropomorphic there...merely an observation ( and I am not a 'townie' lol before anyone leaps in here ) based on a fairly close connection to animals of all kinds...most mammals show 'distress' ( a physical reality not just an emotion ) at being seperated from their young ( however little time they spend with them 'nurturing' ) .... whether that be because of a 'bond' or merely because of 'animal instinct' to protect the young of the species ...I leave to individual opinion :)

I am not suggesting for one minute that seals live in doting little families ...anymore than as an 'anti- fox hunting' stalwart I ever suggested that foxes are cuddly little mini domestic puppies who don't wreak havoc in a hen house...they do, they are wild animals...we ( humans) however have at least adopted a veneer of 'civilisation' ( thats the wrong word but my son wants the rest of his pizza so could you just insert a better one please) thanks :)

Rose xx

You'll probably want a name of that logical fallacy of yours (a nice way of putting it), Roxanne.

It's an "ad locutorem" argument. You have chosen to attack the speaker rather than the speech.

It's a sign of many things, the least being an inability/refusal to engage in civil discourse.

well Im off now,I wont be adding to this thread again, Ive said my piece and there really isnt any need to say more.

Yes,I can be a nasty piece of work Eldrick,but only with people who are false!
you see I am me,what I say is who I am,I dont have to carve a persona:-))
Bye

I'm sorry, Maggie -- "it's okay (in Eldricks opinion) to post re-hashed propaganda supporting this type of culling from dodgy sites then is it?" -- you seem to be referring to me.

I mean, I would take that as referring to what Roxanne has been posting, in an ideal world, but this isn't that ideal world. Was it a reference to something I have posted, and if so, would you kindly specify what it was, and what source you consider "dodgy", and how the nature of the source would be relevant to anything I posted - like, perhaps, about the life cycle of harp seals?

Something else, maybe? How the hakapik is used? Something there is some reason not to believe because it comes from a "dodgy" source, that you have been unable to verify independently?

Maggie: "You still haven't come up with a reason the seals aren't killed during the non-breeding season."

I think I said it quite clearly.

The fur in demand is the pelts of young seals.

"Breeding season" doesn't really have much to do with it, does it? Except that the females do abandon their pups at about the age of 2 weeks to go breed.


Hmm. I would also suspect that the oil of young seals contains less of those bioaccumulative PCBs mentioned in this thread. Mammal milk is a very effective way of transmitting PCBs, but at that age they would hardly have had enough time to accumulate PCBs to the level Sea Shepherd would be justified in drawing attention to. Hmm! Interesting.

Hahaha. the masters of disinformation call the Canadian public misinformed when we don't say what they want to hear.

http://www.sealhunt.ca/Newsletters/Newsletter_Article_Misinformed_Consent.html

And have the gall to criticize the wording of the poll they don't like (conducted for the Dept. of Fisheries and Oceans), when the one they do like (conducted for their friends in the anti-seal hunt lobby) could hardly be less impartial:

"In fact, a commercial seal hunt in Canada which has killed about
975,000 seals over the last three years still takes place. Now do
you support or oppose the commercial hunting of seals off Canada’s
Atlantic coast? Would that be strongly or somewhat support/oppose?
If Canada’s commercial seal hunt were ended, would you be very,
somewhat, not very or not at all upset?"

But hey, nobody said that Canadians who answer pollsters are immune to the propaganda, anyhow.

Can we please have a reasonable debate without the negative personal comments...................I was enjoying reading it.

I am open minded enough to want to hear both sides of the argument backed up with real facts and figures.

I was kinda hoping somebody else would bring up Sen. Harb.

"Bring up" is about right. I happen to know him personally. I wouldn't cross the street to spit on him. He is one of the stupidest and most corrupt and most purely self-interested individuals ever to blot the Canadian parliament.

If Mac Harb says anything (which he seldom bothered to do while he was an MP, before being rewarded for his steadfast loyalty to his leader by being elevated to the Senate), you can be sure it is either a lie or spoken for the purpose of getting some benefit for himself.

But hey. Why believe me? I've only sat on committees with him and seen exactly how he operates. Dirtbag.