General Chat

Ah, Rose! -- "in front of it's distressed mother"

That leads directly to what I was about to post about this whole "baby seal" business.

http://www.thesealfishery.com/facts2.php

Again, it is a site with a POV that I am not requiring anyone to share, and anyone else is free to find competing facts if they wish to look.

"By late February to early March the females(cows) haul themselves onto the pack ice and stake a claim to an adequately sheltered area for giving birth. Newborns(pups) weigh about 11kg(24.3 lbs) and are roughly 85cm(2.8 feet) in length. Harp seal pups are one of the fastest growing mammals and have a yellow color coat at birth at which time they are aptly named 'Yellowcoats'. Within three days the coat turns to a pure white when they are renamed to 'Whitecoats'. Along with their rapid growth comes a rapid child rearing. They only nurse for about 2 weeks before being abandoned by the mother to fend for themselves but over this period gain a remarkable 24kg(52.9 lbs). After the constant care of the first two days, the pups have little contact with the mother. Most of the mother and pup time together being for nursing which takes place roughly six times a day for ten minute periods. Over three quarters of the pups time is spent sleeping.

After the pup is abandoned it begins to moult(shed) its coat, now called a 'Raggedy-Jacket', which over an eighteen day period is replaced with a silver colored coat with small dark spots. During this time the pups will not eat and will continue to do so for roughly another two weeks by which time they will lose about 10kg(22 lbs). While this is happening the breeding season has taken place and the adult seals begin to moult, roughly around the beginning of April. Shortly after the pups are abandoned by the female she is courted by suitable males and breeding commences."


Let's try to get out of the 1970s, shall we?

Whitecoats are no longer legal to hunt. Haven't been for 22 years.

Seals do not live in happy nuclear families with mummy and daddy constantly watching over their little ones. By the time the pups are killed by sealers in the present day, they are independent.

http://www.thesealfishery.com/articleView.php?id=35&page=0&sub=1&status=2

"Before birth the female seal, cow, is highly aggressive toward any seal which happens to come close to her birthing patch. After birth she will continue to protect the area, not the young but the area fore this is her place of rest. She demonstrates a lack of protection for the young by leaving it for long periods of time and only returning to rest herself or feed the pup which occurs approximately six times a day. Even during these times the mother, dame, will only interact with the pup long enough to feed it, after which she displays indifference to its existence. It has been reported that only one in roughly one thousand dames will stay to protect their pup when people approach.

While the pup is alone it will fight with any other pups which happen to wander close. They do not frolic and enjoy each others company. In reality, harp seals are indifferent to the existence of other seals and display more annoyance at their company rather than enjoyment. Just because an animal has a herd designation does not mean it is a highly social creature. Mainly, the only exception to this rule is during breeding season and interaction under water such as feeding.

Harp seals have one of the shortest maternal nurturing periods of any marine mammal. At about 12 to 15 days old the pup is abandoned by its dame. The pups soon begin to moult and are referred to as a “raggedy jackets”. At this point sealers can kill them but prefer to wait until the new fur is “fast”, roughly 33 days old. After the pup has been abandoned by its dame and it becomes acclimated to the water, it heads north with the rest of the herd. It is an individual and does not rejoin its dame or have any type of family structure."

Amanda: "I was not retracting that the post card came from the Canadian Government"

Your choice.

Oh Kathryn,what a sensitive soul you are!!

I really dont care what your real name is,your probably Eldrick too:-))

heres the link http://www.seashepherd.org/seals/seal-hunt-facts.html

your really on a no winner here,dear!

Monday, May 11, 2009
United States Senate Condemns the Canadian Seal Slaughter
One would think that Canada should be getting the message by now. The rest of the world deplores this obscenity called the Canadian seal hunt.

First, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin called it a bloody industry and shut down sealing operations in Russia. Then, the European Parliament passed a Bill to ban all seal products (read the text of the Bill here). Now, Canada's pathetic efforts to overturn the U.S. Marine Mammal Protection Act has been halted by the passing of U.S. Senate Resolution 84 on May 7th, 2009 that calls for an immediate end to the Canadian commercial seal hunt.

This historic vote came just days after the European Union voted by a huge margin to ban the import of seal products from Canada.

"The Canadian politicians are making total fools of themselves with their whining attempts to defend a barbaric industry that the rest of the world is disgusted with," said Captain Paul Watson.

The bi-partisan U.S. Senate resolution was sponsored by Senators Carl Levin (D-Michigan) and Susan Collins (R-Maine).

"It is truly gratifying that the U.S. Senate has passed this resolution," said Sen. Levin. "Canada needs to understand that the rest of the world will not stand by and allow this slaughter to continue. Ten countries have now either banned trade in seal products or have indicated their intentions to do so and the European Union has just enacted a prohibition on seal product trade."

Sen. Collins said, "International opinion, as well as the opinion of the vast majority of Canadian citizens, is overwhelmingly in favor of ending the Canadian seal kill. We strongly encourage the government of Canada to bring this inhumane slaughter to an end."

The resolution noted that more than one million seals have been killed during the past five years, 95 percent of them pups between 12 days and 12 weeks of age. That means that many seals were slaughtered before they had even eaten their first solid meal or taken their first swim.

With the market for seal products devastated, Canada is now considering subsidizing the kill for the sake of killing seals.

Captain Watson and the Sea Shepherd staff and crew are delighted with the passing of the Senate Resolution.

"If my country wishes to host the 2010 Winter Olympics with dignity, the government must put an end to this nonsense of defending the cruelty of a massive seal slaughter that contributes nothing to the Canadian economy and is a source of extreme embarrassment to millions of Canadian," said Captain Watson. "Speaking as a Canadian from the Maritimes, I can only say that I have opposed this bloody obscenity all of my life and it is with anger and sadness that I have watched my government kiss the rear ends of savage baby seal killers for decades. This slaughter is a perversion and a crime against humanity and nature and it must be ended once and for all."

Roxanne, you really are a nasty piece of work, aren't you.

Because your arguments are based on ignorance, party politics and propaganda and you don't have the knowledge to debate, you resort to abuse and snidiness.

How juvenile. How pathetic. How typical of here.

Saturday, May 09, 2009
Sea Shepherd, LUSH, and Canadian Senator Harb Join Forces to End Seal Hunt
On March 16, 2009, Sea Shepherd and LUSH Handmade Cosmetics launched a hard-hitting North American campaign to end Canada's controversial seal slaughter. LUSH is the first company in Canada to take a national stand on this issue. Postcard petitions against the Canadian commercial seal hunt were distributed at all participating LUSH stores.

On May 2, 2009, Development Director, Alex S. Earl, met with representatives of LUSH Handmade Cosmetics in Vancouver, British Columbia, at the Robson Street LUSH store to hand over 38,015 signed postcard petitions to Canadian Senator Mac Harb. Senator Harb took possession of these signed postcard petitions with the assurance that each petition will be delivered directly to Canadian Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, at the nation's capitol in Ottawa, Ontario. It has been theorized that politicians regard every complaint they receive as representative of 1,000 voters who share the same opinion. Applying this theory to the signed postcard petitions, Prime Minister Harper and his government would do well to heed the opinion of 38,015,000 voters across North America.

The Canadian commercial seal hunt is currently the world's largest slaughter of marine mammals. Senator Harb has worked tirelessly to end this hunt. He introduced legislation in March which if passed would amend The Fisheries Act. While no other Senator backed his proposal to put this bill to a vote in the Canadian Senate, Senator Harb stands alone as the only Canadian politician since the 1970's to openly speak out against this annual slaughter.

A global movement against Canada's seal hunt is reaching a tipping point. The United States, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Ireland have complete bans of the importation of Canadian seal products. On May 5, 2009, the European Union voted to ban the sale of seal products in the 27-nation EU. The world's sealing nations, with Canada's hunt being the largest, are now more isolated by global opinion than ever. With few commercial markets remaining open, the end of the seal hunt is near. It is the profound hope of Sea Shepherd, LUSH, and Senator Harb that the delivery of these petitions, combined with the EU vote, will help to end this hunt once and forever.

Oh Eldrick!
you smooth talker!
you must really be feeling angry, how about a cup of weak tea to settle you.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-555209/Shock-pictures-Is-Canadian-government-means-humane-slaughter.html

They may not be killing the " white coats" any more but it certainly seems as if some evidence is being gathered that the hunters are not following the new " humane" regulations .

That came from Sea Shepherd too, I suppose. Guess I'll have to google again ...

"The resolution noted that more than one million seals have been killed during the past five years, 95 percent of them pups between 12 days and 12 weeks of age. That means that many seals were slaughtered before they had even eaten their first solid meal or taken their first swim."

Actually, it means that I'm still being breastfed and use a wheelchair to get around.

After all, I'm between 120 days and 120 years of age.

The resolution can note that the sky is purple with orange polka dots, for all I or anybody who cares about truth cares.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/seal-phoque/faq-eng.htm#q9

"9. How old must seals be before hunters can take them?
Seals cannot be legally hunted until they have moulted their first coats and are living independently from their mothers. Seals are not usually hunted until they reach the "beater" stage of development at around 25 days old. "

And before anybody gets all weepy and teary, "beater" refers to what they do to the water with their tails.

Since seals are abandoned by their mothers by the age of 2 weeks (or did you have some facts to refute that one?), they are NOT killed "before they had even eaten their first solid meal or taken their first swim". (Seals do not "take swims". People do that. Swimming is not a recreational activity for seals, it is a means of locomotion and food gathering.)

So what the US Congress has "noted" is a pack of lies, or, if we are to be kind, a pack of sentimentalized ancient history with no relevance to the seal hunt today.

Couldn't get back any earlier - had to go to work.
Not sure who Eldrick was referring to in his first post on page as upt until them it had mainly been Janey and I.
Is the 'Daily Post' on sale in Canada? I certainly don't read it, I have a reading age above 8!
As for his preferance for 'talking to someone who has the ability to string more than two words together and hold a conversation that doesn't consist of re-hashed watery eyed dogma' - it's okay (in Eldricks opinion) to post re-hashed propaganda supporting this type of culling from dodgy sites then is it?

BTW, I have kept animals - killed them and eaten them. I certainly don't have an 'over sentimentality' towards animals.

Suffice to say his rather oblique comments have probably had the effect he desired - which is as clear as mud to the rest of us.

Janey,
You still haven't come up with a reason the seals aren't killed during the non-breeding season.

I was kinda hoping somebody else would bring up Sen. Harb.

"Bring up" is about right. I happen to know him personally. I wouldn't cross the street to spit on him. He is one of the stupidest and most corrupt and most purely self-interested individuals ever to blot the Canadian parliament.

If Mac Harb says anything (which he seldom bothered to do while he was an MP, before being rewarded for his steadfast loyalty to his leader by being elevated to the Senate), you can be sure it is either a lie or spoken for the purpose of getting some benefit for himself.

But hey. Why believe me? I've only sat on committees with him and seen exactly how he operates. Dirtbag.

Can we please have a reasonable debate without the negative personal comments...................I was enjoying reading it.

I am open minded enough to want to hear both sides of the argument backed up with real facts and figures.

Hahaha. the masters of disinformation call the Canadian public misinformed when we don't say what they want to hear.

http://www.sealhunt.ca/Newsletters/Newsletter_Article_Misinformed_Consent.html

And have the gall to criticize the wording of the poll they don't like (conducted for the Dept. of Fisheries and Oceans), when the one they do like (conducted for their friends in the anti-seal hunt lobby) could hardly be less impartial:

"In fact, a commercial seal hunt in Canada which has killed about
975,000 seals over the last three years still takes place. Now do
you support or oppose the commercial hunting of seals off Canada’s
Atlantic coast? Would that be strongly or somewhat support/oppose?
If Canada’s commercial seal hunt were ended, would you be very,
somewhat, not very or not at all upset?"

But hey, nobody said that Canadians who answer pollsters are immune to the propaganda, anyhow.

Maggie: "You still haven't come up with a reason the seals aren't killed during the non-breeding season."

I think I said it quite clearly.

The fur in demand is the pelts of young seals.

"Breeding season" doesn't really have much to do with it, does it? Except that the females do abandon their pups at about the age of 2 weeks to go breed.


Hmm. I would also suspect that the oil of young seals contains less of those bioaccumulative PCBs mentioned in this thread. Mammal milk is a very effective way of transmitting PCBs, but at that age they would hardly have had enough time to accumulate PCBs to the level Sea Shepherd would be justified in drawing attention to. Hmm! Interesting.

I'm sorry, Maggie -- "it's okay (in Eldricks opinion) to post re-hashed propaganda supporting this type of culling from dodgy sites then is it?" -- you seem to be referring to me.

I mean, I would take that as referring to what Roxanne has been posting, in an ideal world, but this isn't that ideal world. Was it a reference to something I have posted, and if so, would you kindly specify what it was, and what source you consider "dodgy", and how the nature of the source would be relevant to anything I posted - like, perhaps, about the life cycle of harp seals?

Something else, maybe? How the hakapik is used? Something there is some reason not to believe because it comes from a "dodgy" source, that you have been unable to verify independently?

well Im off now,I wont be adding to this thread again, Ive said my piece and there really isnt any need to say more.

Yes,I can be a nasty piece of work Eldrick,but only with people who are false!
you see I am me,what I say is who I am,I dont have to carve a persona:-))
Bye

You'll probably want a name of that logical fallacy of yours (a nice way of putting it), Roxanne.

It's an "ad locutorem" argument. You have chosen to attack the speaker rather than the speech.

It's a sign of many things, the least being an inability/refusal to engage in civil discourse.

sorry only just back Janey...I offered the reply below to illustrate why people who WERE anti sealing in the 70s (God is it really that long ago...I could have sworn I was not old enough...) still have strong feelings that have not dissipated. Not that the situation now is the same as then,

Re " "in front of it's distressed mother" I was not I think being (certainly not intending to be ) 'anthropomorphic there...merely an observation ( and I am not a 'townie' lol before anyone leaps in here ) based on a fairly close connection to animals of all kinds...most mammals show 'distress' ( a physical reality not just an emotion ) at being seperated from their young ( however little time they spend with them 'nurturing' ) .... whether that be because of a 'bond' or merely because of 'animal instinct' to protect the young of the species ...I leave to individual opinion :)

I am not suggesting for one minute that seals live in doting little families ...anymore than as an 'anti- fox hunting' stalwart I ever suggested that foxes are cuddly little mini domestic puppies who don't wreak havoc in a hen house...they do, they are wild animals...we ( humans) however have at least adopted a veneer of 'civilisation' ( thats the wrong word but my son wants the rest of his pizza so could you just insert a better one please) thanks :)

Rose xx

"Mac Harb" - you dont like the guy then Janye?

Oh Janey Janey you are just as guilty of attacking the speaker rather than the argument only you opt to patronise and lecture. Your civil discourse skills ain't all that special.

Still, good to see you exercising your impressive intellect and knowledge on such a worthy forum:)