General Chat

Janey....quite frankly you sound very rude and don't seem to value the opinions of others that disagree with you. I have to dash off now but will try and get back to you with the sources.

p.s. just realised, are you actually that lawyer from Canada who didn't know whether to leave her boring OH and run off with a more exciting guy lol

Willow -- "it seems that they have no idea what possible future complications there could be for a pre-pubescent girl. "

Again -- *what* "future complications" could there be??

This is a vaccination against a virus. Not the implantation of a microchip.

I'll bet I sound scornful. But come on, people.

Kate, I don't understand why you're asking why refusal of consent on the part of both parent and child could somehow be overridden by a low-level employee giving the vaccinations. I really don't think so.

Jeannette -- "But when the company who actually manufacture the vaccine openly admit that they have not done any study into the long term effects with regard to contracting cancer, fertitlity and nuerological and auto-immune problems"

I may have missed it. Did you have a source for this?

"I also read that it was actually boys that are the carriers of HPV so I would like to know why they aren't being vaccinated."

Because it would be impossible to vaccinate 100% of boys, and so any girl or woman that an unvaccinated boy contacted would be at risk. It makes far more sense to vaccinate the people actually at risk, at least in the beginning, and when it is agreedly not inexpensive to do it.

"Also, there are 15 strains of the HPV virus and this vaccine only protects against 2 strains."

The measles vaccine doesn't protect against HIV. I'm afraid I don't see this as an argument against vaccinating against a known disease vector.

I'm afraid I just don't see how this could be a difficult decision.


Adding: "When we had our chat and explained some of the reasons we didn't want her to have it she burst into tears cos she didn't want her best friend to have anything awful happen to her because of the vaccine."

And I'm afraid I don't see doing this to one's child as much different from telling her that her friends will be going to hell because they aren't Baptists.

It's wise to advise one's children about condoms. Condoms are not actually 100% effective. And they're Zero effective if a girl or woman is sexually assaulted, or subject to the usual human frailties that result in people just not always doing what they oughta.

tanianz --

The bottom line for grocery stores is profit. Have you stopped buying food?

I ask this rhetorical question as a way of demonstrating the flaw in your logic, only.


"at the moment in the USa the CDC is examining 44 reports of Guillaine barre syndrome following gardasil. ..."

When I read things like that, I like to have a source other than a stranger on an internet board who does not appear to be the primary source him/herself.

Can you cite yours for us? I am not saying your info is correct or incorrect. I'm saying I want to see the source, so that I can assess whatever the actual info is for myself.


"Your own personal experience with Cervical lesions dont mean you should scoff at other peoples attempts to make an informed decision ..."

I think that if you are concerned about people being able to make informed decisions, you should be providing information. Which involves citing the sources of the information you offer.

Webster offered information, and cited the source. Your own assertions don't rebut that information without at least a souce.


"your adamance that there are No proven side effecxts to Gardasil can be equally matched by the fact that there is NO absolute proof that they arent causing problems"

I have seen no definite proof that there are no faeries at the bottom of my garden.

I'm sure you will think me rude, but unless there is at least some *reason* to suspect that there will be adverse reactions, such assertions are not admissible in this kind of discussion.

What would be causing these hypothetical adverse reactions? A dead virus -- when no other dead virus causes it? Is there something special about dead HP virus? The stuff the dead virus is in? No mercury or thermisol -- is it somehow different from the stuff other vaccines are in? Does the dead HP virus and the stuff it's in combine in some sort of alchemy to produce badness?


There's another thing at work too. Some people are just opposed to vaccination of all kinds, for whatever their reasons are. I'm not suggesting you are one of these people. But there are such people involved in the HPV vaccine "debate". And if they don't disclose that they are opposed to *all* vaccination when they argue against HPV vaccination, they are being simply dishonest.


"What is the likelihood my child will contract this (what are the cancer rates)and what is the likelihood with public health measures(smears and condoms)"

Why do you think it's appropriate to just repeat what you've already said, when it's been responded to? Why not respond to what's been said in reply?

"What are the cancer rates?" is NOT the only question. I did not get cancer. I did have not-minor surgery and that surgery CAN have important effects on a woman's life (such as creating an incompetent cervix, as I mentioned).

Smears do NOT protect against HPV infection. They can lead to preventive measures if abnormalities are detected, to prevent DEATH. NOT to prevent disease.

Condoms do NOT protect against non-consensual sex. Given the ongoing rates of unintended pregnancy and STD infections, it should also be obvious that advising condom use is NOT an effective way of preventing either. Pregnancy and STDs really are not punishment for failing to use condoms, let alone for being sexually assaulted.


"What is the effiacy of the vaccine,are we risking side effects for something that will wear off in a year or two"

Those really are two separate questions, aren't they? Why do you bundle them together?


I hope you will forgive me if I say that I have seen every one of these talking points before, many times over, and was just as unimpressed each time.

My daughter is 17, we haven't had a letter yet but I certainly won't be rushing off to get her vaccinated. I agree with Tanianz. Why is it they can afford to give these injections to many who still don't need it without knowing the side effects, when there are people paying for their own cancer treatment because the government say they can't afford to pay for it on the NHS?
but that's just another gripe :)

Let us know how you get on

Not as yet, Jeanette, but I'm working on it. I considered phoning NHS direct but a while back I sent them a query online and all I got back was a standard, "We are unable to answer your question, please ask a doctor about it" type answer. The closest answer on the website was that the vaccination campaign would not be extended to a wider age range as it was not considered cost-effective.

So I am still looking into it. (Incidentally, somebody mentioned family planning - there's a health centre in our town that is a manageable distance on foot, but the notice in there says family planning is based at the community hospital, which is on the other side of town and not walkable at all! Somebody was really bright coming up with that.) Might try making an appointment with a practice nurse at the health centre, though - I'm sure they would have the same information.

Oh yes, the old abortion question! I can see it from a young girl's point of view in that they think it's nothing to do with their parents. But as a parent, if my girls were faced with it, I would want to know so I could help and support them with their decision.

Btw, have you made any headway into finding out if you can have the HPV jab and will you be going ahead with it?

Janey I see you have done the usual lawyers scornful first sentence in your post(not a good look),I have had to wait all day to reply because it pissed me off LOL.
But I am calmer now so here goes,
The reality is that companies are racing to release vaccines for cervical cancer and the bottom line for all of them is money.
The systems for reporting vaccine reactions around the world are dismal to say the very least,the Usa dosent even have a national immunisation register.your adamance that there are No proven side effecxts to Gardasil can be equally matched by the fact that there is NO absolute proof that they arent causing problems,studies are not complete causal relationships are hard to establish in such a short time and there must be questions about effiacy amongst other things.
any parent making an informed choice does need to take into account what is going on around the world with a vaccine.
at the moment in the USa the CDC is examining 44 reports of Guillaine barre syndrome following gardasil.
13 cases are confirmed,8 dont meet the criteria,11 are unconfirmed and 9 are pending official follow up,GBS is a very difficult condition to follow and 2 years frankly isnt long enough
It could be that this is a normal level of Guillaine Barre in this agegroup the the jury is not out yet.
Gail very rightly pointed out that there has been a spate of reactions in Australia as well.
Syncope,(fainting)tingling and other potential neurological symptoms
Your own personal experience with Cervical lesions dont mean you should scoff at other peoples attempts to make an informed decision and your assertion that anyone who "cares" about their daughters is a bit thoughtless and arrogant and very much your own opinion.
Plenty of people who care very deeply about there daughters may decide against.
As with any vaccine its a fairly simple process.
What am I vaccinating for
What is the likelihood my child will contract this (what are the cancer rates)and what is the likelihood with public health measures(smears and condoms)
that this can be controlled.
What are the potential long term side effects of the vaccine.
What is the effiacy of the vaccine,are we risking side effects for something that will wear off in a year or two(like NZs MENZ B vaccine)
Do the benefits outweigh the risk for my child
Once you have clarified these things in your mind you can then make an informed choice.

Also a good thought, Jeanette. It is almost getting into that "grey area" over, say a girl under 16 was pregnant and wanted an abortion and spoke to her GP about it, there is that issue over whether the parents should/should not be informed.

I remember when I was 10 (anybody here have kids who had the measles jab around December 1994? - national campaign about it), I was terrified of needles by then. Got the form at school, took it home, my mum ticked the box to say I was having it, then the day when they were doing the jabs came round and my mum (knowing I would go to pieces faced with a needle) came to school to say I had a cold so couldn't have it done, and I had it done at the doctor's the following week.

So then you have the issue of, what is the latest point at which the parent can give or withdraw consent?

Hi Kate

What worries me is that I have not given my consent but, if my daughter sees all of her mates having the injection and decides she wants it, can she then overrule my decision?

Hi Willow

I can only suggest that you read as much as possible about it and you could also make an appointment with your GP to discuss it.

That is a good point, Jeanette. When I was of school age I was really, seriously needle-phobic. If you flip that consent issue round the other way . . . if a parent did sign the consent form but the child was terrified of needles, that gives the said child a loophole to refuse to have the jab in spite of the parent's consent.

And let us say that a parent refuses to give consent, and then the child refuses to do so as well. Does that mean that whoever is doing the vaccinations will still overrule the fact that the parent and child both said no? Something puzzling there.

Hi all

I got the letter yesterday, but like others I am unsure.

I have also read reports that the trials which only lasted six years were only carried out on 16-24 year olds, with the mean age being 20, so it seems that they have no idea what possible future complications there could be for a pre-pubescent girl.

Really dont know what to do.

Hi Theresa

Yes it is embarrassing....kids don't think parents should be doing it and vice versa lol. But it does go on in all ages and needs to be talked about. I used to be really embarrassed about it with my eldest to start with but that's worn off over the years ;-)))))


I would like to add that if my daughter is still eligible for the vaccine when she's old enough to make her own decisions, we won't stand in her way.

Edit: the consent form states that if it is not returned to school our daughter may be asked to consent. That doesn't seem right

Jeanette,

good on you, despite the embarrassment...lol Too many parents dont discuss sex with their kids even in todays age! My kids had many siblings so it was never an issue it was and is an open topic! They were even there when Jamie was born and the 2 eldest girls cut his cord!

love T.x

Its not being offered here in Ireland as yet (to my knowledge) but I am another who would need further persuasion.

I would want to see the longevity of protection explored further. I went to secondary school in the 1980's in the UK and was routinely vaccinated against TB as was my sister. 10 years ago she got TB and was very ill. It now transpires that like many vaccines the BCG doesnt always last for life as was once expected. I know this isnt a reason to not vaccinte but it is a reason for follow-up programmed to be put in place to ensure that immunity has been conferred and is continuing.

Janey, last Tetanus I had I was hospitalised over...lol My arm swelled so much my fingers started to tingle and change colour! I hadnt had one in many, many years and doctors could only think it was because of the auto-immune condition I have! Was so glad yesterday when they told me I didnt have to be rechecked for TB as last time I didnt have any reaction at all because my condition masks the test!

Its a major decision but then I am someone who spaced my childrens vaccines rather than pump an 8 week old full of 4-5 vaccines in one. He did have them all but I waited until 5 months for the 1st. I exclusively breastfed so I believed he was protected to some extent this way and had the vaccine started st 5 months in anticipation of introducing solids. I dont advocate this but believe I made an educated choice based on my own research!

love Theresa

Morning Maz!

No I didn't see the programme unfortunately but I've changed my mind several times too since receiving the consent form lol

When Liv first brought it home she said she didn't want to have the vaccine, mainly I think because she didn't relish the thought of 3 injections lol. But yesterday she came home saying that she wanted it because all of her friends were having it. When we had our chat and explained some of the reasons we didn't want her to have it she burst into tears cos she didn't want her best friend to have anything awful happen to her because of the vaccine. We then went on to discuss using condoms and having regular smear tests and she nearly died of embarassment lol. So it's not just us agonising over wether we've done right but it's been a bit traumatic for her too!!

Hi Jeanette,
you are right, it IS tough decision. Did you watch the programme about it on Channel 4 (I think it was) a couple of months ago? I think I changed my mind about 5 times while it was on!
suppose I ought to discuss it with ex really *sighs*
Maz. xxxx