Genealogy Chat

Hi, I understand that there was an inquest but as I said in an earlier posting the Coroner's Office advised me to go to the Glamorgan Record Office. Unfortunately they do not have any reports prior to the early 1950's Would anyone know if there is a government body that would still have it? I can pick up Patricia's death certificate tomorrow but it may well have been Mr Harris who identified little Patricia. Bye Paul

Hi How do we know that William registered the death - did I miss something?? I'll go and look at the ERs post 1970 later this coming week (closed Mondays). Prior to that only Hetty & George on the list. Engineer Road is now a newish awful looking sprawl of nondiscript flats - so I expect them to disappear from ERs at Engineer Road late 70s early 80s. I can't remember when the newish flats were built. I'm due to go to London this week, if I get time I'll check out the probate listings for 1983 and 1988 for Henrietta and George - to see if either left a will may give additional pointers Rachel

Hi Annie, I thought we did but reading back I don't think we do. Sorry, Janice

Janice, Do we KNOW he registered her death? I can see that he registered her birth ... Regs Annie

The civilian deaths for a William Armstrong can't be this William Armstrong because the 1943 one was Q1 and he registered patricia's death in Q2. Janice

That's brilliant Christine. I have printed it off (after faffing about changing my cartridge:) Will study it later.

Yes you are right Christine Henrietta could have had a child after 1950 (her age 42) in which case they would not appear on the ER until at least 1970. Then again, she could have had a child who left home early. Age of majority change from 21 to 18 on 01/01/1970 (thank you Google)

Hi All, Patricia's MI reads: In Loving Memory of Patricia Armstrong Evacuated from Woolwich 1939 Died at Morganstown May 22nd 1934 Age 9 Yrs JESUS CALLED A LITTLE CHILD UNTO HIM Cheers Mumsy

Hi Paul, did I 'bullet point' then? gosh that sounds grand and hi-tech :)) Alas, I wont be around next week, but - as and when anyone acquires new data, or wishes to add to the 'What's needed' section - they could copy my posting with their additions, and that will keep the ball rolling. c xx

Hi Christine, Many thanks for bullet pointing the known facts and highlighting those areas in which we are uncertain. Hopefully this will help everyone since the thread is growing fast. Perhaps you would be kind enough to update your reply as a facts page which can be added to as more facts become known. Many thanks Paul

I may be wrong Claire, but I thought only voters names appeared on the electoral register, so if there were children born after Patricia (ie 1935-39) they would not 'appear' because they were not over 18. errr ...oops ..... it would have been 21 and over in those days ....... c xx

Just another thought If Henrietta had any further children then they must have left home before the age of 21 as they don't appear on the ER.

Deb, I thought Paul Wright was co-ordinating this with our input ........ but I've done a precis of the known facts. c xx What we have : Patricia Armstrong born 1934 Q2 Woolwich 1d 1362 Mother’s maiden name Wilson Patricia’s birth certificate: 1934 Births in the Sub-District of Plumstead in the County of London No.: 390 When & Where Born: Twelfth March 1934 St Nicolas Hospital Name: Patricia Sex: Girl Name & Surname of Father: William Armstrong Name & Maiden Surname of Mother: Henrietta Maud Armstrong formerly Wilson Rank or Profession of Father: Ex Gunner R.A. of 22 Engineer Road Woolwich Signature, Description and Residence of Informant: W. Armstrong Father 22 Engineer Road Woolwich When Registered: Seventh April 1934 Signature of Registrar: M Taylor Registrar Patricia died in the A/M/J quarter of 1943 at East Glamorgan 11a 697 Nine year old Patricia Armstrong, an evacuee from Woolwich, London, who is billeted in Morganstown, is killed by a train at the Gelynis Crossing. history.cardiffschools.net/WW2school_logs.doc Patricia’s parents : 1933 Q2 Woolwich 1d 2308 Henrietta M Wilson William Armstrong Births Jun 1908 Wilson Henrietta Maud Newcastle T. 10b 62 What is still unknown is if William Armstrong enlisted in the RAF and was killed in WW2? or did he get captured and imprisoned in a POW camp? Who paid for the burial / headstone? Was Patricia an only child? When did William Armstrong die? There are two possibles on the list of the RAF deaths overseas for William Armstrong: Flight Lieutenant, number 41812, unit (B?)PO/GIB, died 1943 (ref vol 1 page 131) ; and AC.2, number 866588 (middle initial V), unit 322 MU, died 1944 (ref also vol 1 page 131) There may be unit histories available? None of the William Armstrongs listed in the CWG site 'fit the findings'. Two death entries for a William Armstrong - is one of these men Patricia’s father? Q1 1941 William Armstrong 35 Strood 2a 2392 Q1 1943 William Armstrong 68 Greenwich 1d 796 Electoral Roll for Engineer Road: 1934 both William and Henrietta living at No. 22 1935 – 1939 both William & Henrietta living at No. 9 1939/1940 only Henrietta living at No. 9 No Rolls for the war years May 1945 – 1948 only Henrietta living at No. 9 1949 Henrietta Armstrong & George Francis living at No.9 1949 – 1962 Henrietta Armstrong & George Francis living at No. 9 1963 Henrietta Francis & George Francis living at No. 9 1964 – 1971 Henrietta & George living at No. 9 Marriage Q3 1962 Woolwich 5d 2224 Henrietta M Armstrong & George Francis Death Dec 1985 Greenwich Vol: 12 Pg: 1807 Reg: 1285 Henrietta Maud Francis – Born: 2nd April 1908 Death Dec 1988 Greenwich Vol: 12 Pg: 941 Reg: 1288 George Francis – Born 12th Feb 1909 Questions Raised: If William Armstrong died during the War, why didn’t Henrietta Maud remarry until 1962? It now seems unlikely that she had children with George Francis. Was Patricia an only child? Could other children have been born to William & Henrietta between 1935 and 1939. What we need: Marriage certificate (or a look at the Parish Record for entry) for Henrietta Maud and William to determine their age which will indicate a Birth Window, and also give Fathers Names. Once we have a Birth Window and Fathers Names we could in theory find other members of the families in the 1901 census, depending on whether Henrietta and William were the youngest or oldest children of their families, and hopefully trace siblings’ descendants.

Hi All, Rachel has once again offered to (in an earlier posting) pick up some more certificates. I agree that until we know more information gleamed from the certificates it is difficult to do any more. So I wait patiently until Rachel posts her findings. On Wednesday I hope to view the Cardiff Rural Council notes for June 1943, at the Glamorgan Records Office but I do not feel that they will contain any more than we already know. Has anyone got a military historian in the family. The POW possibilty for William may well be worth considering as it has been suggested by several of you. Once again many thanks to you all for your help, advice and fantastic interest shown. Paul

I'll second that Chrissie. We definately need a co-ordinator. Come on good people. Can anyone with enough time take on this roll? I'm quite prepared to look for records but don't have much spare time because I work. Deb:)

I am following this avidly but at the moment I can't see how it can be researched properly without knowing what is on the marriage certificate at least, for ages and fathers names. Even then, if the fathers happen to be called John a labourer, birth certs would be needed even to be sure on 1901. Does anyone else feel that anything worthwhile could be searched for without this information? If so, I feel that a co-ordinator is needed - no, I'm not offering:) I would be happy to search if someone said 'look for ......... birth or death or marriage between these dates'. The danger is though, that without someone co-ordinating, several people could be wasting their time on the same thing. I only have the odd half hour now and then when I can look so 4 or 5 years would be about my limit each time. Chrissie

Marking so I can catch up later. How many of us are doing this? Linda :o)

thats right Maggie - in fact Henrietta could have been 16 when she married William. Equally - she could have been an older lady. Only the parish record (or marriage certificate) will tell us how old William & Henrietta were. we dont know for sure that it was the Henrietta Maud born Newc/Tyne 1908 who was Patricia's mother. It could have been Henrietta M. would the parish record for Woolwich be available at the LMA? c xx

No Francis childen mmn Armstrong or Wilson born in woolwich 1949 nor 1950

a little nudge from me too