Genealogy Chat

Very true Janice. It could be any of the William Armstrong deaths that were born around that time anyway.

nudge to keep it going

Just reading this what a sad but then again lovely thread. I don't know if anyone has come up with this reason for the marriage being dissolved ( so much to take in in one read) but just in case. What if he was a POW or died unknown and never returned from the war. If after so long long then Henrietta could have remarried i should think. But as there was no death cert. perhaps the church would disolve the marriage leaving her free to remarry. Hope that makes sense. Well done to all. Germaine x

Hi Germaine At the second marriage though she says that her marriage is disolved. Chrissie

Hi Chrissie. Yes But I just wonderd what if the church couldn't annul it but if he had been missing then there maybe some way of doing it so she could remarry. Did she remarry in RC Church I can't remember . I wonder what they did in those cases. Germaine x

Oh, I see what you mean Germaine. No, I seem to remember that the second marriage was in a register office. Mind you, we do know that he was released in 1941 as ill and injured or something.

Hi Chrissie just been back to look yes it was reg. office. which I should imagine does point more to divorce for a catholic. It just seemed a long time frame from the second husband moving in with her to them getting married. I was wondering if they had to wait so long before he could have been declared dead. Then as you say if he was discharged on healthrounds then the thought of mental breakdown does sound good terms for a divorce. Oh did i read on a thread the other day somethign about there being a place that can look for divorces but i think it was very expensive. Germaine x

I found this on the IGI in the 1881 census. Could be a transcription error but they have Randall as Kendall. The rest of the names tally however. Peter ARMSTRONG Head M Male 43 Scotland Coal Miner & Draper Mary ARMSTRONG Wife M Female 50 Falstone, Northumberland, England James ARMSTRONG Son U Male 18 Scotland Coal Miner Margaret ARMSTRONG Daughter U Female 17 Scotland Minnie ARMSTRONG Daughter U Female 12 Falstone, Northumberland, England Kendall ARMSTRONG Son U Male 11 Falstone, Northumberland, England

Hi Alex, if you read the thread, you will see that I have posted this same info this teatime, and that we have already covered this. I really do think people should read what has been posted most recently, on the thread. Not meaning just you Alex. I think it is wonderful, that so many of you have taken such an interest in this family. I have spent all day looking into this, and pleased with my results. Ok, I am not helping in the decendants of Patricia, but if we can get back to her ancestors, we may just find one person who is researching the same family, but is not a member of GR. Keep up the good work all of you. Jenny.

Hi All, I've just spent an hour or so going through all the messages on the thread. There is an awful lot of information to try and digest. Even I cannot do it. So I've taken the main points out and put them into a word document to make it easier for myself. What I've also done it to start building a family tree for Patricia on my home PC. It was a good suggestion from Rachel and it has now paid dividends in that I can clearly see the relationships. It is true to say that your input, no matter how big or small or just encouragement, all contributes to the mammoth effort of finding Patricia's family. By finding the details of her ancestors we can hope to find her descendants (hope I've got that right). Let's be honest, we have all done extremely well in a very short space of time in which most of us could never have done it on our own. Once again many thanks to all who offer help, support or just encouragement. Bye Paul http://patricia-armstrong(.)freewebweb(.)com/

I am sure that you don't have to be a Catholic, to marry a Catholic. A friend of mind who is CofE married a Catholic,in a Catholic Church over 30 years ago, the Service is shorter than the full Catholic marriage one...a few years later she Divorced him!!! and is now happy married these last 20 odd years to an Italian, the point being...Catholics do its seems marry and divorce, mind you, her second husbands family do not know about the first wedding, as they (Italians) do not of course approve of Divorce, very confusing I know, but it does happen...so maybe, this happen in the case of dear little Patrica parents???....Lilly.

I have been following this thread for the past few days and on having looked at the 'tribute' website created for young Patricia, tears were brought to my eyes, I couldnt help but think of my own precious 8 year old daughter. It is so heartwarming to know that even though this little girls life was short - she has touched so many of us and her name and story shall remain in our hearts always. Thank you Paul.

Rachel & Paul, once again you are stars. I only went out for the evening and look at what I missed. You really had a good day yesterday. Things are really moving on now. Keep up the good work :-)

Morning recap:

Patricia Armstrong:
b Twelfth March 1934 St Nicolas Hospital Sub-District of Plumstead in the County of London

d 23 May 1943 at the level crossing near Gelynis Farm, Morganstown, Radyr, RD

Mother: Henrietta Maud Armstrong formerly Wilson
Father: William Armstrong


Henrietta Maud Wilson:
b Jun 1908 - Wilson Henrietta Maud - Newcastle T. - 10b 62
Mother ?
Father James Anthony Wilson (Deceased)
Rank or Profession of Father: Seaman Merchant Service

Marriage Dissolved ?

m Twenty Second April 1933 William Armstrong 777708 Gunner R.A.

m Fifth July 1962 George Francis Bus Conductor London Transport Executive

d Nineteenth December 1985; St. Nicolas Hospital, Plumstead


William Armstrong:
b 30th May 1909 (? 10) in Amble Northumberland

Mother Isabel Fisher (? Jenny is this from the certificate?)
Father Randal Armstrong (Deceased)
Rank or Profession of Father: Seaman Merchant Service

Enlisted: 12 January 1928 in Newcastle Upon Tyne
Discharged: 23rd October 1941 KR390 Xvii (Sickness & Illness)

m Twenty Second April 1933 Henrietta Maud Wilson Housemaid

Marriage Dissolved ?


Randall Armstrong:
b March Q 1870 in Bellingham Northumberland

Mother Mary
Father Peter Armstrong

Siblings
William born 1858 Scotland.
James born 1863 Scotland,
Margaret born 1864 Scotland,
Grace born 1866 Scotland.
Wilhelmia (Minnie) born 1869 Northumberland.

This is just a brief recap of the 'facts' so far for all those trying to keep up with Paul and Rachel. For more details you'll have to read the thread or view Pauls' website.

What will today bring! :-)
M

Just a thought to muddy the waters if you can't trace a divorce - if William Armstrong left his wife after his daughter was born and was unable to be traced by his wife, she would have to wait 7 years before he could be declared dead and she would be free to remarry any time after that. We have experienced this twice within my wider family & ancestors, and when partners remarried after declaring their previous spouses 'dead' their marital status was described as 'previous marriage dissolved', not widowed. Keep up the good work!

Maggie, See page 17 for marriage which ties in with births of children (in Scotland according to the census) Janice

Just a thought. Williams joins the R.A. Enlisted: 12 January 1928 in Newcastle Upon Tyne Discharged: 23rd October 1941 KR390 Xvii (Sickness & Illness) On his marriage cert, he is still serving in the Army as a gunner in 1933 In 1934, on Patricia's birth cert it states that he is an ex gunner. This would mean that he left the Army sometime between 1933/34 and not 1941. I understand that this is not really relevant in the search for any of Patricia's relatives. It's just that the discrepancies in the years caught my eye. Terry

Terry As with all research there are always slight discrepancies that can never been 100% closed out without speaking to the individual concerned - which isn't always possible. William may have fibbed about his age to get into the army - 30 May 1909 entlisted 12 Jan 1928 - making him 19yrs 8mths. He may have also fibbed or been accurate about his aged when he married Hetty - 23 Apr 1933 aged 22 - making him born approx 1911. The issue over Ex Gunner on his Patricia birth certificate – may be he wasn’t ‘fit’ for active duties but was technically still in the army perhaps with a ‘desk’ job. Unfortunately, getting a service from the MoD from someone you’re related to is difficult, costly and takes an absolute age. For someone not related even more difficult – if anyone has experience of requesting service records in this type of situation - please let me know how you got on. Thanks Rachel

I've just checked with my parish (Catholic) and a divorcee would not be allowed to marry in the church. If however, William disappeared and wasn't found after 7 years, he could be legally declared dead and Patricia would then have become a widow and would have had permission to re-marry in the church. The fact that she re-married in a registry office (marriage disolved) indicates that she divorced William. Deb:) I've just re-read my posting and realised that I haven't made my point very clear. The Catholic church would have recognised Patricia as a widow after having William legally declared dead. As a widow, the church would have allowed Patricia to re-marry within the church. Because she didn't indicates to me that she was a divorcee.

Perhaps William did a few years, then re-enlisted or was 'called up' at the outbreak of war.

Looks like service records could be a no go:

Details taken from veterans-uk

Requests from Interested parties
Enquirers must provide a letter of consent, signed by the person to whom the records relate.

Records of Deceased personnel
Enquirers must provide the consent of the Next of Kin and unless the person died in Service, proof of death. A charge may be made for enquiries. Prior to 1972 all Royal Navy personnel were given their service record when they were discharged. For pension purposes the Royal Navy retained pay details. Therefore the only data held on Royal Navy personnel who served prior to 1972 is their Service details (number, rank, name etc) and a list of dates and ships/shore bases.

Certificate of Kinship
Information from the personal record of a deceased Ex-serviceman/woman can be released only with the consent of the official Next of Kin. The form aims to identify whose consent is required and the data you provide will be used only in connection with your enquiry. The form is retained for 2 years should you have subsequent queries. To download the Certificate of Kinship form for the Army, please click here.
For the Royal Navy, please click here.

it is possable that he retired from the army just prior to his wedding, but re-enlisted at the out break of war.