Genealogy Chat

I've just been saying to Paul (and hope he wont mind me repeating) : the man who died in 1998 might not be Patricia's father. Its such a common name. William might never have returned from the war i.e. died in a POW camp in the far East, and buried there. No body after 1945 - no death certificate - ergo the need eventually to have the marriage dissolved. I was sorry to have missed the radio interview but we were away. The progress you are all making is amazing !! Christine

apologies if this has already been mooted but I had the thought that Henrietta's marriage could have been dissolved for two reasons : 1. William Armstrong never returned home from WW2 but there was no body to confirm he had been killed 2. William Armstrong returned home but due to experiences / injuries was a shadow of his former self and spent his remaining years in a hospital. Whichever is the case, I hope Henrietta found happiness with George Francis. I'll be keeping an eye out for the website to catch up with further developments. Wouldnt it be lovely if this tale found its way to television? It would certainly be a fitting Thank You for the caring and sharing Genes researchers who have pieced this story together at their own expense and who deserve acknowledgement for the time they've all spared to ensure little Patricia does not remain forgotten. Christine

nudge

The Monaghan family is as follows: Francis Monaghan b.c.1835 Ireland married Sarah Ryan/Serrano b.c.1822 Ireland children: John b.1842 Ireland Ann b.1846 Ireland Hugh b.1848 Ovingham, Northumberland =married Emma Mimms Sarah Jane b.1855 Gateshead or Sunderland Theresa b.1857 Gateshead Francis b.1860 Gateshead Winifred b.1869 Gateshead Sarah Jane married Carlo Pasola children: Carlo b.1875, d.1895 Leonora b.1876 Then Sarah Jane married William De Weld Silmon (previously Mohamed Sulmaine but changed his name when he was baptised and became an English citizen) children: Josephine b.1879 William b.1881 Theresa Amina b.31/10/1882 Francis b.1884 Frederick b.1886 George b.1889 Dunstan-Upon-Tyne Marie Cecilia b.1893 Benwell Ruth b.1896 Benwell Luis b.1898 Benwell

Hi, I am in contact with Joe Silmon-Monerri who is one of Sarah Jane's grandchildren, I think his father was George. He has given me all of the information I have about the Silmon family and we pasted it together with what I knew about the Monaghan's to make an extensive story but I struggle to remember the details off the top of my head. He has previously mentioned to me his 'Aunt Theresa marrying a Mr WILSON and a Mr Hayes? They lived in either Elswick or Benwell.' but I never knew anything about Patricia. I have now contacted Joe and wait to hear if he knows anymore. What makes this story even more interesting and an even bigger twist of fate is what had already happened beforehand - and I hope ever so much that Joe doesn't mind me sharing this with you... Sarah Jane was first of all married to a Carlo Pasola who was Italian. They went over to Italy to show their two kids off to his parents and family. Then, her husband, a sailor, died at sea in a possible sea battle??. Sarah Jane then had to escape from war-torn Italy with her two children Carlo (aged about 2) and Leonora (aged about 1), not from a war situation, but from her dead husband's parents. They wanted to get rid of her and keep their dead son's kids, which they thought they had a right to do, as grandparents. Sarah Jane escaped, by stagecoach, then by sea, and because she was trying to avoid Newcastle, where the Italian PASOLAs might have followed - to kidnap the children - she went to London. There, around 1876, she got work at the Spanish Embassy, where she first started to work for D. Francisco GISBERT, as a governess to his children. When he was posted abroad, she was allowed to go out with the Mission, so he also became her boss in Morocco. She qualified for this work, not only because she was multi-lingual and a very strict disciplinarian, but because of her status as a widow. This is how she ended up in Tangier where she met Mohamed/William and without this happening Theresa Amina would never have been born (one of many children). Wow thats a lot more stuff there to take in!!! Nikki

Hi Nicola, thanks for getting in touch with us. Welcome to GR. I found your tree on Ancestry late Wednesday evening, it was fascinating. May I ask where abouts you are lving? None of us are related to young Patricia Armstrong. Our main aim is to find out if she had any full or half Siblings. As I live in Tynemouth, which is near Newcastle upon Tyne, I am concentrating on finding any other decendants that may still be in the area. In fact I live just around the corner from Edith Street where William Osman Silmon lived with his family in 1881, the houses are still there. Do you have any contact with any decendants of Sarah Jane Monaghan's and William's children or grandchildren? I am presuming you have seen the Website that has been set up. If not the address is at the begining of this thread. Please keep in touch. Jenny.

nudging so I can keep up. Caz

Hi I'm Nikki from Ancestry!!! lol. My great great gran was Theresa Moore (nee Monaghan) her parents were Sarah (nee Ryan) and Francis Monaghan. Theresa was one of several children, her older sister being Sarah Jane Monaghan who later married a Silmon. (Please note the names are debatable - birth certificate & marriage certificates relating to my Theresa show the mother nee Ryan. All of Joe Monerri-Silmon's research including evidence from Morocco regarding Sarah Jane Monaghan & Mohamed/William's marriage shows mother's maiden name as Serrano. I have been told for many years that Theresa's mother was Spanish and there used to be a picture in the family of her with a mantilla however this has dissappeared and I can not easily find out any more information to clarify this Spanish connection or surname so it is still a bit of mystery.) I am in contact with the Joe Monerri-Silmon whom you mention above and have got a lot of details from him. As a young woman Sarah Jane was a governess for the children of D. Francisco GISBERT and whilst working abroad in Tangier Morroco with them she met Mohamed U'led Slimane - who later changed his name to William Osman De WELD. Mohamed/William was a Morrocan boy that had been taken in by the Earl Saint Maur - there is a rumour he was his illegitimate son and evidence to back this up although it has never been proven. Sarah and William had many children including a daughter Theresa Amina De WELD SILMON. She was married first to a man called WILSON, and then to another called HAYES. I had never heard of the accident that you tell of and this is another interesting story to add to a very interesting heritage I am discovering so thank you all very much. Are some of the posters on this list related to the Patricia that died and possibly through to me then? As an aside I am trying to find out more about the life of my great great gran Theresa - I believe she too was a governess abroad, family legend says to the Duke and Duchess of Fife in Belgium but I haven't found a way of proving this yet. I also have pictures of Sarah Jane, Mohamed/William and Theresa. If anyone wants any more info about the family etc. please get in contact.

Earlier on this thread I posted a list of William Osman De Welds children. It was their Son, George Silmon born 1889 who was the Father of the Jazz player Joe Silmon. Just 'Google' Joe Silmon. Then go to The Making and Repair of a British Jazzman. It mentions how Joe's Great Grandfather came to this Country. For those that have access to Ancestry. There is a family tree 'Chapman Family' by a NikkiC21. Here you will find the 5XGrandparents of Patrica. I am still trying to check the data on there. I still intend spending the day at the library here to verify a few points and start searching the Electoral Rolls. Keep up the good work everyone. Jenny in Tynemouth.

Terrence I've sent you a PM Mumsy.

nudge...

Question:

Should we put a tree on the internet of what we have so far?

I think ancestry would be good because we can share it. You can invite guests so they don't have to be members and if it's a 'one world tree' anyone can view it. We can always remove it once the work is done so as not to upset living relatives.

Let me know what you think. PM is probably the best way so as not to fill up the board.

Forgive me if it's been done but has anyone checked divorce records. A divorce for Henrietta would indicate that William was still alive.....and eliminate a few of the same name. Henrietta and George were living together a long time before they married. Gwyn

Am adding so that I can find this as I have been busy and I shall be for a couple of days. I just had a quick search on here and found a Josephine that had a Joseph Silmon in her tree born 1938 in London but I see from the last post that it isn't likely to be him unless Josephine has her facts wrong:) I was going to ask if anyone had contacted her.

Found the following info on Joe Silmon: Born Aug 16 1937, Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Full name - Joseph Augustine Anthony Silmon-Monerri Father: George Arthur Weld Silmon. Born Dunston-on-Tyne 1889 Mother: Josefa Monerri Fuentes. Born Cartegena, Spain 1899. Terry

WOW !! i have been offline for a couple of days and when i came back i was astounded with how far you have all got. i have been reading the postings and i ended up reading faster and faster to get to the end it was so enthralling. Well done everyone you all deserve a pat on the back. keep up the good work . linda x

Nudging so I can find it again, am riveted with this, hoping for a good outcome

Nudge so I can find again

Now we now know Henrietta Maud Wilsons parents, I am concentrating on her Maternal side to see if I can find any living relatives here in Tynemouth or surrouning areas. I intend spending the day on Saturday at the Library looking at Electoral Rolls. Henrietta's parents were James Anthony Wilson and Theresa Amini De Weld Silmon. They actually lived just around the corner from me and the houses are still standing. Theresa was born in 1882 in Newcastle uon Tyne. Her parents were William O De Weld Silmon and a Sarah Jane Monaghan. William worked at the Grand Hotel here in Tynemouth. From the census we know that she had at least 8 Siblings. Josephine, William, Frank, Frederick, George, Mary, Gertrude and Ferdinand. On Freebmd I have found these marriages. Josephine married a Luis Alfredo in Newcastle 1896 Frank married a Valborg Ormston in Newcastle 1903. George married and had a son called Joe Silmon, who I believe was a well known jazz player. Hopefully they had children and I can find their Births. I willl keep you all posted. Jenny.

Paul Wright wrote:
but to be honest I don't think I'm needed anymore.

Oh no Paul you're not getting off that lightly (lol) I have been on my PC since 6.30am and apart from a short break to help a friend I've been on the internet searching for Patricias family. You started this and it's a real pleasure to be able to contribute but we need you.

Recap

PM me if theirs anything I've missed or you want added. Then it wont get as confusing for others. As new facts come to light I'll update this message to try and keep all the info together.

Patricia Armstrong:
b Twelfth March 1934 St Nicolas Hospital Sub-District of Plumstead in the County of London

d 22 May 1943 at the level crossing near Gelynis Farm, Morganstown, Radyr, RD

Mother: Henrietta Maud Armstrong formerly Wilson
Father: William Armstrong


Henrietta Maud Wilson:
b 2 April 1908 - Wilson Henrietta Maud - Newcastle T. - 10b 62
Mother Theresa Amina W Silmon
Father James Anthony Wilson (Deceased)
Rank or Profession of Father: Seaman Merchant Service

m Twenty Second April 1933 William Armstrong 777708 Gunner R.A.

Marriage Dissolved ?

m Fifth July 1962 George Francis Bus Conductor London Transport Executive

d Nineteenth December 1985; St. Nicolas Hospital, Plumstead


William Armstrong:
b 30th May 1909 (? 10) in Amble Northumberland

Mother Isabel Fisher
Father Randal Armstrong (Deceased)
Rank or Profession of Father: Seaman Merchant Service

Enlisted: 12 January 1928 in Newcastle Upon Tyne
Discharged: 23rd October 1941 KR390 Xvii (Sickness & Illness)

m Twenty Second April 1933 Henrietta Maud Wilson Housemaid

Marriage Dissolved ?


Randall Armstrong:
b March Q 1870 in Bellingham Northumberland

Mother Mary
Father Peter Armstrong

Siblings
William born 1858 Scotland.
James born 1863 Scotland,
Margaret born 1864 Scotland,
Grace born 1866 Scotland.
Wilhelmia (Minnie) born 1869 Northumberland.

This is just a brief recap of the 'facts' so far for all those trying to keep up with Paul and Rachel. For more details you'll have to read the thread 'A Sad Little Tale' or view Pauls' website.