Genealogy Chat

Hi Can anyone help me find out if my grandfather led 2 lives one in Manchester and one in London. I have him as Frederick Henry George born in Australia in 1881, who settled in Manchester after first world war, a draftsman and met and married Lillian Watt (they could have married in London) had a daughter and a son. He supposedly died about 1927 about the time his second child was born. I have not been able to find a death recorded in Manchester at this time!! They where living in Whalton on Medlock, Withington, or Ardwick, all in Manchester Borough But I have found a Frederick H (Harry) George died in March quarter of 1928 in Wanstead Essex with his son F.S. George in attendance!! Could this man be, one and the same, I don't know the truth, about Frederick, apart from, he was recorded as father on daughters certificate but not son's. (space was left blank!!) Can any one help me please?!! hopefully Val

Val Forgive silly question, but if he is not recorded as the father on the son's cert, why do you think he is the father? nell

Hi Nell He was always told that his father was Frederick Henry George who came from Oz and died about or not long after the time Dad was born in 1927. His certificate just has a line through father, but his sister who was born first, has Frederick on hers. regards val

Val If he's on the sister's cert I don't see why he wouldn't be on your dad's, especially if he was born later. There seems to be some mystery here, not sure how you unravel it. nell

Hi Nell No I don't know what to do either!! it's just a BIG mystery val

If I were you Val I would try to see the Original Record. This could very easily be a Transcription Error.

Val, Just another thought. A person's death gives no indication of residence. He might have been away on holiday with his son when he died.

What's in a name Births Sep 1861 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GEORGE Frederick Henry Romford 4a 88 Births Sep 1885 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GEORGE Frederick Henry Romford 4a 290

Hi, If Frederick was the father of your grandfather then he would almost certainly be recorded as such if he was married to the mother at the time. If a woman was married any children were "assumed" to be children of the marriage. A blank where the father's name should be implies illegitimacy. Perhaps Fred died more than 9 months before your grandfather was born and thus his wife couldn't claim he was the father of her child. Or maybe they weren't actually married and had separated by the time your grandad was born and the father was someone else. Or maybe he was the father but the marriage either didn't happen or was bigamous so the mother could not put his name as father without him being present. My best guess is that he and his wife had separated and he wasn't your grandfather's father. But how you would prove that I don't know. Gwynne

Hi Grampa Jim Apart from certificates, which I always thought where proof in writing!! how do I get hold of "origional record" as you suggest please! Is there some other page on net??? I realise this man could have been on holiday when he died, but if he was Dads father, then this man had another son elsewhere that we knew nothing about! (although that's not surprising is it, as we don't know much about him anyway) The address of death is same as informer's residence! down as his son!! So, maybe wrongly, I can only assume that, if he's the same man, then he had to have led 2 lives!! Am I just giving up dissapointed and dissalusioned!! I think maybe I am. Dad would be heart broken if I even suggested this other family to him! He believed everything his Mum told him. What can you suggest I do, I'm not really good at this genealogy thing, but I desperately wanted to find my Grandad so we could see (maybe) photo's for Dad to see what his father looked like and to find a likeness in the family???!!!. Val

Hi Gwynne Frederick George was my Dads father (my Grandad) Can you tell me, would I not be right in thinking that, if Dad was illigitimate they would not have stayed in the area!! It wasn't the done thing then was it!!! Yet Dad said they always lived in the same house as when my Aunt was born. (when Frederick must have been there) I feel terrible even thinking this and could be doing my Grandad a terrible injustice!!! but the suggestion of bigamy does sound probable dosen't it? That was why I was trying to find out if, in those days a man could lead two lives! (He must have been worn out all the traveling from Manchester to Essex) His home I supose could have been Essex, and when in Manchester lived with Gran and her Mum! How could he have explained himself to my lovely Gran (if she had found this out she must have been devistated mustn't she?! ) And if that is the case then I can understand why her mother hated anything to do with him, although she always told Dad, her grandson, she didn't like men and boys!!! (he always avoided his gran when younger, he was terrified of her, so I believe!) HOW CAN I FIND OUT IF ANY OF THIS COULD BE TRUE, THERE IS NO-ONE TO ASK???!!!!!!! Val

Hi Val, People did stay in their home towns when they had babies out of wedlock. The neighbours no doubt disapproved but it wasn't so easy in past times to move away. I think you may have to do a year by year search of the GRO index for a marriage for him to your grandmother. And for a possible marriage before or after that to someone else. Do you have his death cert? Are there any clues on that? Gwynne

May be the reference you found in 1928 was a completely different man with similar name? Could be cousins or something. May be the other death cert needs looking for ? Kim

Valarie Last night I look in the 1837 indexing for Watt, 1920-1924 found nothing, I did notice there were lots of Watts, could her marriage be under watts do you think. If you are going to London or your local FHC to look at the indexing make sure you look under Watts as well. I have saved the Watt indexing to my computer so I will be going through them again looking for any who married a George, I did find a Lilian who married in London I think it was a Russell. The g Grandmother could have had something to do with it if she hated men, she was left with a daughter was she married do you know. Maybe Frederick left before your father was born, therebye his name couldn't be put on the certificate there are lots of George's around so it is possible there is another around the same age. So don't give up. Your grandmother sounds like a nice lady, she didn't hate him did she so what ever it was maybe she didn't know. If the g grandmother was living with them and she showed her hatred of men would your grandmother have left with him or did she want to stay with her mother. These are all you have to look at. Have you tried the Australian Embassy maybe he went back to Australia had you thought of that and your grandmother didn't want to go because it would mean leaving her mother. She would then say he had died believing she would never see him again. Maybe that is why she never married again knowing he was still alive. It took me over 3 years to find my husbands g grandfather, known as Arthur Hinton born about 1848, Ingatestone Essex, there were lots of those too but not from Essex. We knew the g grandmother and to put us off even more I found a Marriage for her to a Arthur Wells in Winceshter 1874 but 7 years later she is in London with Arthur Hinton where she lived the rest of her life both Arthurs were the same age I only just found out last year by looking for them in 1901 that he was born in London, that is 2 censuses I found him on, then I found the family in 1891 but Arthur was not there his sister was and single. I track her down then I found Ebenezer Arthur Hinton's birth this year. A week or two after I found his death and grandmother was the informant so I know its the right one now. Now we are sure the marriage is the right one, but was he in the Army as Wells or was there a mistake when copying the certificate. Everything fits even the fathers name and occupation its just the Wells thats wrong. So whether you want to send for this marriage I found and see if she could be the right one or not is up to you. I can only tell you of my experiences. Mistakes are made in the indexing. So every angle should be looked at and crossed off as you find it. It will take time but it will be worth it in the end. Irene

Hi Kim I wish I could find my grandfathers death certificate, but I really don't know where else to try. I do hope the other man isn't anything to do with me!! I keep hoping that someone may see a Fredrick Henry George death, I've missed. Val

Hi Valerie Have you checked to see whether the FH George who died at Wanstead left a will? If so this may give some clues. If I were you I think I would try to trace the birth of the FS George (son) who registered the death, then you could check the details on the birth certificate, e.g. father's occupation, to see if they match. You may also then be able to find a marriage between that child's parents, which may account for why he could not marry your gran (if they were the same person). That's about all I can think of at the moment. Good Luck. Carolyn

Hi Irene Thank you for looking up Lillian Watt in 1920-24, I suppose you could be right about Watts, knowing how easy it is for people to put in or emmit a letter to a name, I will look up the Watts as you suggest and see what transpires!! Unfortunately I won't be going to London, I'm up north!! forgive my ignorance but what is a "local FHC"? On my Grans birth certificate she did have a father, William Lennox Watt. On 1901 census Gran (Lillian Watt) was aged 9, living with her Mum, Helen Stewart Watt, then a widow! I have to admit, I felt, when I heard that my Great Gran disliked men, (she could have made her son-in-law's life hell)maybe, she was the reason he left, and my Gran being the nice, little old lady she was, would have felt guilty leaving her mum alone, so had to let him go. Yes, I have to agree that, she would have found it nicer to tell her children he died, rather than say he left them. How do I go about enquiring through the Oz embassy, about a man who is supposed to have come from Oz and may have gone back, in about 1928, do you know how I set this up, sorry for the ignorance!! You sound as if you've had as bad a time as I'm having, with your family. Thankyou again Irene Will look up the Watts and go from there!! Fingers crossed Val

Hi Carolyn The Frederick Harry George was a confectioner and tobaconist, it said so on the death certificate. My Frederick Henry George was a draftsman, but as yet no birth, marriage, or death cerificate for him.. Yes I shall give a try looking for FS George, when his parents wed etc. Thanks Val

Val it does sound as if this F H in Essex is not the same one, such different occupations for a start. The Local FH is your Local Family History Centre, sometimes they have or can get the indexing which is in London might save you a packet if they can or do. So its worth asking them. The other way is to check 1837, don't forget to save each page in year and quarter order, you can then go back and check each one again if you wish. 1920 Watts 1 Jan, 1920 Watts 4 Dec. etc This is how I found my Arthur didn't think to look under another name. After I had saved them I went through and studied each entry for Hinton. It is much easier now they have changed 1837 you will find your page much easier if you put in Watts it tells you what each page starts with and finishes with. So .40 a year not bad. Better than the train fare and the time travelling. Is it possible for them to have marriage in the War is that how they met do you know. That is a long shot. Travel back from your Aunts birth and see good luck. Irene

Irene, do I ask on general or tips board if anyone can find anything on a local family history in the Manchester area? And again, if anyone can look up parish details for same area? Sorry to be a pain, I just don't want to look a fool when I place a request.!! Thank you so much for all your help, I just wish I was in the position to help you, but as you can gather "I NO NOTHING" Val