Genealogy Chat

Hi Kate, I think you're thinking will turn out to be spot on! Not five minutes ago did I order that very birth certificate. Not sure how to go about looking into the adoption side of things yet as never had to do it before but thank god fella's out all day tomorrow golfing so I can spend all day looking into it!!! This morning I bought some credits for Scotlands People and found Jane Tait's birth and 2 probable siblings - neither married a Hogg so I don't think Margaret Ann was adopted into the same family - see my thoughts on the previous message. I do hope there were some kind of records kept back in that day to confirm everything. Here's hoping. Many many thanks for you help and brain power Kate, Em x

Emma - I think I've solved it! I've been kicking myself all morning for not thinking of this before I went out of the house so I could have posted this up sooner. Could it be she was adopted? She would have been born as Margaret Ann Hogg, parents William Hogg and his wife, then adopted by Derwick and Jane Ormond. When she got married she gave her original birth name, perhaps because she had to show her birth certificate. I think this fits all the facts, and leaves Jane's reputation intact! I don't know how 19th-century adoptions worked because I haven't come across any in my family (yet). I had a quick look at the GRO birth indexes for Hogg and Ormond from 1848 onwards, and stopped when I found this one: Mar 1849 Hogg, Margaret Ann, Alnwick XXV 243. It's a handwritten one so I'm not sure about the page number. It would fit her age of 12 on the 1861 census. The more I think about this the more I think it must be right! Kate.

Thank you everybody for all your ideas and routes to try out. I've had it easy so far with my mothers side and not come across anything like this. I've exhausted parish records for all of my maternal side bar one lady from Ireland! So I think it's only right I have a few problems on my paternal side. I'm going to look for any wills now to see if they can help, also see if Jane Tait from Scotland had a sister who married a Hogg - perhaps she died and my couple raised the child as their own until she was due to get married then told her the truth. I wouldn't be looking at all these avenue's if it wasn't for you guys - I'm very grateful. Wish me luck - I've not had anything to do with Scotland yet so it's new territory once again. Kate, Thank you very much for your on going help and ideas, much appreciated. Em

I've been thinking about this one while the kids were on the computer, so now I'm back on here are the ideas I had - have you traced a birth registration for Margaret? I would guess that if her birth is registered under the surname Ormond it will name Derwick as the father anyway, though, so it might not help but it must be worth looking. And as I said before, if you haven't found them on the 1851 census try that to see if you get any clues. Oh, and another thing I thought of if you are looking through the William Hoggs is to see if any of them have the same occupation as on Margaret's marriage certificate. I think that's it for now. As you said the mother's maiden name on the son's birth certificate is also given as Hogg I think it unlikely it could be a clerical error on the marriage certificate. Kate.

I simply hadn't thought of them making mistakes but I suppose it could be easily done. The marriage cert is ordered from the GRO but took place at 'Zion Meeting House' in the district of Alnwick. I think I've read somewhere that that was Presbytarian. Thinking on this more I think she must have changed her name somewhere between census night 1871 and wedding day 1872 because on the birth cert for her first son Derwick Ormond Goodfellow she's down as Hogg.

Hmm... if you can find a will for any of these people it might help, but I don't know what are the chances of that. Anyway, I still think your theory about Margaret's father is the most likely. You might have to look at all the William Hoggs and see if any of them lived next door to the Ormonds or anything like that. Oh... and if you can find everybody on the 1851 census it might help, maybe you will find Derwick and Jane were separated at the time? Kate.

I think we must have added our replies at the same time! Anyway, now I have seen Derwick, Jane and Margaret all together on the 1861, I'm sure it must be the same Margaret who married Adam, but still can't see where William Hogg fits in. You could well be right about him being Margaret's real father, I can't think of any other explanation at the moment. There were a few William Hoggs in Alnwick and I see one on the 1861 census was born in Scotland about 1816. Could that be him? Kate.

I can't read that word either Kate!! I've pencilled Dinah in as Derwick Ormond's mother. His father was D.O. too and on Dinah's death cert it just says Dinah Ormond widow of Derwick Ormond - no maiden name. This is driving me potty. I lost my dad nearly two years ago to suicide and have just recently felt able to look into his side of my tree. As his name was Derwick Ormond Goodfellow I'm desperate to see where his name originates from.

I see on the 1871 that Jane Ormond and her daughter Margaret Ann Ormond had Dinah Ormond living with them. Jane is head, Dinah 'mother in law' but I can't read the word after that. The transcription just has 'mother in law' but I'm sure there is another word. Age 86, widow, no birthplace given, 'imbecile' (presumably senile dementia). Have you already sorted out where she fits in? Kate.

Hi Kate, Been thinking about your 'uncle' comment and trying to expand the tree outwards but still not come to anything. Jane Tait's father is William Tait so she'd not been married before. Margaret Ann Hogg/Ormond's father is listed as William Hogg on her marriage cert. Jane Tait and Derwick Ormond were married before they had Margaret - I've traced them as a couple through the census, he later died and she goes on to live with her daughter and son in law. I've checked the same with Adam goodfellow's parents incase 'm-i-l' meant step mother but that doesn't seem to fit either. They must be closely related somewhere for Derwick Ormond's widow Jane to call herself mother in law on the census when living with the Goodfellows. It is possible that Margaret Ann was the result of her mum being naughty out with the marriage and she told her daughter later on in life who then changed her name to match her birth father. She got married 2 years after her father (or who I think's her father) died so maybe the truth came out???

Just thinking about this one, and don't forget that 'mother in law' could mean step-mother in those days, but was Jane a spinster or widow on her marriage certificate? And was her father's surname Tait? And what are Margaret's fathers' details on Margaret's marriage certificate? Kate.

Just to further confuse matters: In 1881 living with Adam Goodfellow, his wife Margaret Ann (Hogg according to marr cert) and kids including Derwick Ormond Goodfellow is Jane Ormond nee Tait - widow - who is Margaret Ann Ormond's mother!!! She is listed as mother in law. Am I going round the twist? Em

The name Derwick Ormond seems to go back a few generations on the IGI with different spellings such as Deniwick and Derrewick, so maybe Derwick Ormond Goodfellow was named after one from a previous generation? Maybe the connection between the Goodfellows (or the Hoggs) and the Ormonds was just in an earlier generation, and you have to expand the family tree a bit to find it! But the suggestion above could be correct. One of my ancestors appears to have been named after an uncle by marriage in the hope that he would inherit his money, and it seems to have worked! Kate.

I suppose there is always the possibility that the name was chosen for no other reason than that it rolls nicely off the tongue? And if the Family were Butchers for generations the likelihood would be to name a son after his father in each generation which would show commercial stability. Maybe you are reading too much into it?

Grampa, You're blinking confusing me there!! The Adam that's the father (rather than son Adam) married in 1841 an Ann Wright (father George) that's as far as I've got with her. Adam's parents were James Goodfellow and Julia Nicholson. You know this made perfect sense before the certs arrived - if only he'd married MA Ormond and not MA Hogg.

Brenda, Nothing like that crossed my mind. The name doesn't appear to have been carried on down the 'stray' line - just brought into the Goodfellow family and carried on from here. Derwick Ormond was a servant at Alnwick Castle. The Goodfellow's were nearly all butchers in Goodfellow's Yard. Em

Jess, Yes that's right - The Adam with the marriage confusion is the son in that census - his dad Adam married Ann Wright. Oooh you're all so quick to respond I can't keep up!! Kettle's on - and Bailey's is out of the cupboard ready!! Em

Hi Jess, Out of that list I have two marr certs. The Ormond married the Tait and the Goodfellow married the Wright which is exactly what I thought before I received them. The Goodfellow/Tait's had the Adam Goodfellow in question in 1847 - it's this Adam that I thought must have married the Ormond. The Goodfellow/Hogg marriage is Mar 1872 Alnwick Em

Who was Derwick Ormond? Someone without two pence to rub together, or a farmer perhaps, with a bit of property? He might have been godfather to the baby, or related distantly by marriage and the child was named so that Mr Ormond would always be reminded of his namesake and perhaps do something for the boy.

from 1861- thsi the right adam goodfellow? Susanna Bell 1831 Hexham, Northumberland, England Servant Alnwick Northumberland Adam Goodfellow 1814 Alnwick, Northumberland, England Head Alnwick Northumberland Adam Goodfellow 1847 Alnwick, Northumberland, England Son Alnwick Northumberland Ann Goodfellow 1815 Lowick, Northumberland, England Wife Alnwick Northumberland Ann Goodfellow 1849 Alnwick, Northumberland, England Daughter Alnwick Northumberland George Goodfellow 1845 Alnwick, Northumberland, England Son Alnwick Northumberland James Goodfellow 1842 Alnwick, Northumberland, England Son Alnwick Northumberland John Goodfellow 1840 Alnwick, Northumberland, England Nephew Alnwick Northumberland Julia Goodfellow 1854 Alnwick, Northumberland, England Daughter Alnwick Northumberland Rebecca Goodfellow 1851 Alnwick, Northumberland, England Daughter Alnwick Northumberland