Genealogy Chat

Thank you for your replies I think Citizens Advice is a good idea too, he was going to them initially but when Social Services was suggested he thought that was a more obvious route....Live & Learn! Tina You certainly have not upset me, they are all valid comments and you haven't mentioned anything that my BIL and I haven't talked about. The fact that his mother could very well be frightened that allowing her son back into her life, may also bring his father, is the very reason my BIL does not want to take the bull by the horns and drive up there. He will respect her wish to be left alone, however hard that may be, when he has had a definite response from her, not a carer. Which is why some intervention is needed, Salvation Army has been suggested. On the previous page of this thread Carole Ann's idea is a good one, my BIL needs to know from a person in authority, a GP or her social worker possibly, that she does not want contact. Of course he would like to know what is wrong with her, if she's being cared for adequately (given the tone of the letter from the carer that is uppermost in his mind) and why she does not want him to be part of her life, but the ball is in her court, she doesn't need to explain does she, but this will affect my BIL for the rest of his life. I don't mean to sound harsh, but she does at least owe him that. Looks like it will all be on hold until Tuesday at least because of BH weekend. Also, I do not know how much, if any, internet access I will have from tomorrow until late Friday evening. I'm off to Creetown in Scotland with my family, visiting my aunt. So if you don't hear anything for a few days I will definitely update when I get back You've all been wonderful, lots of private messages too. I cant tell you how much it has helped to be able to ''talk'' here. Sam

Hi Sammy. I would say thay any later children,born to the ''mother'' and her partner could go in parteners name with his consent...or in her name (even if same as her enstanged husband Bils dad) but the cert would have both of her names on;;ie married name; and ;maiden name;;;; so any more children could be hard to find.....as ''what name do you search for'''????? Kay;;

Just to answer a little bit about the surname question. My Dad's first wife gave her child my Dad's surname as they were still legally married at the time. Although she didn't name any father on the birth cert. If a woman is legally married she can name her husband as the father even if he isn't as it is assumed that he is and that if you are married you are not required to take the father with you to register the birth. I guess it would be a matter of choice for her as if she had subsequent children and took the father with her to register the births they can have the father's name. This happened to me as my Mum and Dad were both legally married to other people at the time. It is not as bad as it sounds their marriages broke down - not either of my parents fault and due to the costs involved didn't get divorced for several years. They married 2 days before my sixteenth birthday so that my birth cert could get changed - ah! Pippa

Sammy I have followed your thread since it started, and my heart goes out to your BIL and also you, who is also feeling for him so much. Please though may I put another point of view - that of his mother. I fully appreciate all the comments that have been made by other people about how they cannot understand that she might not want to see him, and therefore feel that the letter may not have come at her wishes, or alternatively that she is just 'not a very nice person'. However, it has come to light in what you have said that she was physically ill-treated by BIL's father. Although it is so many years ago, she may still be traumatised by the time she spent with him. She has hidden from him for all this time - she may well still be really genuinely frightened at the thought of him knowing where she is. Also, BIL was brought up by his father's parents. To her way of thinking, she may see BIL as being a replica of his father. I know this sounds nasty, and I am sure from what you say that he is not, but she will not know this. This was a young woman, beaten, traumatised, who escaped and never wanted to be found again. This has been her life since then. Please bear that in mind in everything that your BIL does. First of all, he has to convince her that he is not a replica of his father. Personally, I would go down the Salvation Army route. They have a lot of experience not only of how BIL feels, but also of how she will feel. I hope that you are not upset by what I have written, and I hope that BIL is able to finally come to a happy conclusion for everyone.

Not sure about other childrens names(if she had any).............she could have given them her maiden name.is that possible legally? OR they could have the name of their father. Ann x

Just a thought but has your Bil considered going to the citizens advice bureau to find out legally where he stands it shouldn't cost anything to speak to them and they'll be able to tell him his rights, this could also give him a bit of ammunition if he contacts social services again if he can state that he has taken legal advice and if he believes his mother may not be being cared for properly it can all be recorded. i think im starting to waffle so i hope this helps

Can I just ask, in the event of her having had more children, would/should they have the same surname as she & my BIL? Since she is still married to BIL's father, although the children would only be half siblings. She was only 23 when the marriage failed, she had a stillbirth that year too. So whilst I realise more children were obviously possible, it has always been thought of as highly unlikely Sam

Morning all.. I have already checked the electoral roll, there is no one with her, nor has there been in the past 18yrs. It would be surprising to find more children since she is still married to BIL's father, 33yrs down the line and neither of them have filed for divorce. He was violent during their 3yrs of living together, it has been suggested that she did not divorce him because he then would have known her whereabouts, which she would not have wanted. BIL's mother was adopted, therfore we have not been able to trace her birth nor any siblings. Her maiden name (adopted) is Barnes, so although there have been 2 brothers mentioned, it is not known if they were birth siblings or adopted i.e. Barnes or whatever her birth name was, needle in a haystack. Her father (adopted) died in 1972 I traced his death, but I do not know about her mother, the father was born in 1902 so if her mother was a similar age she would be long gone too. My BIL had no contact with his mother's family after his parents marriage broke down. The Salvation Army does seem worth a try Thank you all

Hi Sam I've been reading your thread with great interest. I just want to add that family members can be official carers. I have an aunty in Birmingham who has low mobility (severe arthritis) she can walk slowly with a frame and has a chair lift to upstairs... her daughter is her carer. BIL's mother may have gone on to have more children who may be still living at home like in my aunt's case... just a thought. Might be an idea to check the electoral role to see if anymore else lives there. Good luck. Gerry B

Hi Sammy, What a sad, sad case this is, I feel so very sorry for your bil, this must be breaking his heart. I have had some dealings with SS this past year or so, and they can be difficult to pin down at the best of times, and in my opinion quite a law unto themselves sometimes! However, saying that, due to so much bad publicity in the past, they are usually pretty desperate to cover their backs. This could work in your bil's favour. My thoughts on this are that he must write to them now (enclosing a copy of his birth certificate to prove he is her son) and explain that although he has spent many years looking for his mother, and desperately wants to meet her, the last thing he wants is to put any undue pressure on her to do the same, especially as he's been told by this carer that she is ill. He respects the fact that they cannot divulge any information about her to him, however, he has GRAVE concerns about the letter he received from this carer; that as far as he is aware this person has no legal right to speak on her behalf; that for his mother's sake, he needs to know that she has received his letters personally and made the choice not to see him of her own free will (not pressured in some way by a third party); and that if she is either mentally or physically incapable of communicating with him directly, or indeed prefers not to, then he needs to have this in writing from someone in authority, someone who he feels he can trust to legally speak on her behalf. In order for this matter to be laid at rest once and for all, he is requesting that her power of attourney, if she has one, contacts him, with a copy of their papers stating their position as such, OR, if she doesn't have a power of attourney then he needs her social worker, or GP to contact him instead. Either way he needs someone to send him an official letter stating they have seen his mother, spoken to her and have her permission to write to him and say she doesn't wish to have any contact with him. Maybe, just maybe, voicing doubts about the letter (which he should enclose a copy of) and asking for an official letter expressing her wishes will put enough pressure on them to make sure this is what SHE wants, and not some iffy carer making all the decisions for her. If this is the case, then your bil will at least know where he stands and can begin to move on. I hope this isn't what she wants and things work out well for him. Best wishes, Carole.

Are there absolutely no other relatives or old family friends who could be approached about this. Either ones who are in touch with her or could go round and visit. At the very least he could find out what her illness is. There are the best 'family detectives' that money can't buy on these threads, somebody could probably find her branch of the family for you. Mandy

Sam, if it were me, I would approach the Salvation Army. Joy

Mmm... see what you mean about private detective. I know contact cannot be forced on her, and he does know that he may have to move on once he's exhausted all his options. but from a practical aspect, my BIL wants to know what is wrong with her, so much has gone through his head, and it really could not be any worse than anything he hasn't already thought of Jackie, thank you but it has already been suggested, and BIL did just that, to be stonewalled at every turn. There is absolutely no way SS will tell him anything. He asked if they could ensure that one final letter is actually given directly to her, their response? - We'll try!!!!! They're are being as much use as a chocolate teapot! They are seemingly sympathetic, but why couldn't they say yes to that one request So now he doesn't want to send it to them. Sam

I haven't read all the replys so if I'm repeating someone elses sorry. If she is only 56/7, and is ill enough to have carers - it's possible she may be supported by Social Services - if she has a Care Manager or Social Worker if he explains the situation they may be able to approach her on his behalf or offer some advice. I'd start by phoning the local Social Services Adult Services office and asking to speak to the Care Manager of Mrs XXXX - and say he's her son - they'll probably look her name up on their compulter to find out who this might be, and if she's not known to them they would probably say so. It's worth a try - Good luck Jackie

Hi Sam, I meant more to watch what happens at the house ie: the comings and goings probably one week day would be enough. A friend of my sisters was commenting 'thank god we have a normal family',She rang my sister only a few weeks after and said we're not normal anymore,somebody had approached her husband in a car park and explained he was his brother,now the guy had an american accent,so he was a little suspicious anyway went home rung his other two brothers and admitted he had arranged for this guy to come round,turned out their mum and dad had had a baby together and because of religion she was sent away to have baby,he had gone back in the forces,when he came back they met again and married and had three son's but in order not to disrupt her childrens lives when they started getting letters through ss she just sent them back not interested,so eventually he hired a detective,they found out where mother and brothers were living,then he stopped of on the way back from a business trip and he admitted he had previously watched his parents leave from the house and his brothers too,when they asked there parents (who were now in there late 70's it all came out) they had a reunion and have all carried on contact.Now I know it sounds like this guy had money (and he obviously did) but could your b-i-l not do it himself or get a friend to do it. I think I am feeling so desperate for your b-i-l to know the truth that I am starting to think of anything that might solve his not knowing. Denise. Keep smiling Sammy.

Sammy I take your point about the cost of a Private Detective. However, they 'have ways' of finding out stuff which would be completely closed to the rest of us.(Nuff said). Personally, I think the Sally Army is a good route to go down, although they arent free either. But whoever you choose, no-one can force the lady to have contact if she doesn't wish it. So, I think you have to choose an intermediary who you can completely trust - then, if the worst happens and they say she has told them she wants no contact, at least you can believe them, and you may also get an idea of the reason.A skilled intermediary might also be able to lay any fears to rest that she might have, e.g. you are after the money, or youve just come to give her a piece of your mind. I had limited Power of Attorney for my father during his last few years - this was only to be invoked if he was PHYSICALLY unable, say by hospitalisation or an accident, to carry out routine affairs such as paying bills etc.I couldnt actually get at his money!!!! I think the sort of Power of Attorney you mean, where someone is mentally incapable of carrying out their own affairs, has to be countersigned by a Doctor/Doctors. I have been thinking about all this, because I am about the same age as this lady, and trying to think what sort of circumstances would make me NOT want to see someone 'from the past'. I can only come up with 'A disfiguring illness'(including extreme obesity, don't laugh) or perhaps serious depression. If this letter was indeed dictated by her, it has the ring of someone who 'cannot cope' in a long-term sort of way. It does not sound like a terminal illness to me, surely she would welcome the chance to make her peace? And even terminally ill people can manage to write or dictate a letter, not leave it up to a 'Carer'. I am thinking positive thoughts for you and your BIL and hope you have some good news for us all soon. Marjorie

Hi Thank you for your ideas I have no idea about the power of attorney stuff, would that only be if she was not of sound mind? Not sure how a private detective would help. How would he find heath records if my BIL cannot be told anything? And we already know where she is living. There shouldn't be a price put on this, but I have already been warned off that route, I know it can easily run into £100's or more and my sister & BIL have just not got that sort of money. It's lovely to have all your kind wishes :) Sam

Hi Sam, This is just a thought,but what about a private detective now I don't know the cost of such things,but I do know of a similiar story that ended in a Happy ending.I wont bore you with the story but if you will like to know it is not a problem.Have been watching thread from the beginning,Denise.

Enduring Power of Attorney only has to be registered with the Court of Protection if the donor has lost their mental capacity, so the court may have no record of it. Also if someone is granted Enduring Power of Attorney a copy of it doesn't have to be sent to all family members. Just wanted to put the record straight here. Good luck and I hope you get the situation resolved.

I've emailed you Chris, I wondered where you had been :)