Genealogy Chat

Maybe it's something to do with butchering that makes people tell porkies lol???? My 2xg-grandfather is on three census returns, has his occupation recorded on the birth certs of seven children and the death certs of two children, so that's 12 opportunities to give his occupation. I think he may hold the world record for different jobs - every sort of thing imaginable, but all temporary and unskilled. HOWEVER when he died, his wife registered him as a Master Butcher and when his only dau married she too gave his occupation the same!!! Don't think he had ever touched a dead animal in his life, except when he was poaching!!! (Oops! lol) Sarah

I presume this is your Harriett... in 1881.. Harriet Kirkham abt 1864 Manchester, Lancashire, England Servant 13 Monton St, Moss Side, Lancashire, England Not sure where she is in 1871 though. Will keep searching.

There may be a smidgeon of truth in his job - he may have been a butcher's assistant, doing manual work lugging carcasses around. Heather I do have a genuine ag lab William Broad who became a farmer when very late in life - he was 69 - he married the spinster sister Clara- she was in her 50s - of his younger sister Katie's husband Gerrance Chapman. Gerrance and Clara's father had farmed many acres and owned a string of cottages, whereas William and Katie's father was an ag lab all his life. Contrary to expectations, Clara died a few years before William, who inherited all the property and left it in his will to his nieces and nephews. Only later did I connect the fact that some of these nieces & nephews, being Katie's children, were blood relatives, rather than those by marriage. nell

Welcome back, Lou. A couple of points: one of my ancestors was both butcher and farmer at the same time - he owned the farm, the slaughterhouse and the butcher's shop - so your 'retired farmer' and 'butcher' could go together. I wonder if John Kirkham's other occupations were just to keep him busy after he retired? Secondly, do any of the witnesses' names from either or both wedding(s) give any clues? Kate.

finding the birth certs for the census/IGI family still won't solve your problem, unless they say Butcher, which seems unlikely. There's a good chance John was buried by the family, not the parish, in which case there's a possibility that the cemetery people might have some record with the name Turner on it. Clutching at straws, but it's hard to see what else. You need some record of the Turners that can be linked with their pre-married lives. Maybe one of them turns up at the wedding of a cousin or the death of an uncle or even gets a mention in a will. But the only way to find that sort of thing is to take a chance on tracing the Kirkhams you've got

Hi Cat One of my husband's ancestors was recorded as a carrier or coal dealer on all census returns but on some of his children's marriage certs his occupation was a baker. These occupations don't seem to be a good combination but then I found him listed as baker/ carrier and coal dealer in a trades directory. Another ancestor was recorded as a butcher on his marriage cert, thought I had the wrong one as he was nailer or miner on later census records then found he was working for a butcher at the time of his marriage. What I'm trying to say is that your chap could have been a butcher or worked for a butcher at one time and moved on to another occupation. Nell, I have ancestors who were ag-labs then farmers. Heather

I'm assuming they went along with the same story given they married 2 brothers. And Hannah's future husband, John, was one of the witnesses at Harriet and Joseph's wedding so presumably had already heard the 'My father's a Butcher' line and so Hannah had to be consistent!

Used his dob and found the entry. GOt v. excited when another John Kirkham, b. Cheshire 1815 came up, but he was born Helmsby and was unmarried. It's interesting that both girls stuck to the same lie though. Maybe poor Hannah had to go along with it as Harriet had already said he was a butcher. Presumably he wasn't expected to provide the meat at discount for the wedding receptions! nell

Hi Lyla There's a marriage on IGI between John Kirkham and Martha Davenport 23 Mar 1849 which does tie in quite neatly with the eldest of Harriet's siblings located, Jane, who was batpised in September 1849, but until I can lay my hands on a birth certificate for Martha's maiden name, that marriage could just be a huge coincidence Lou

Hi Nell Thanks for that, I'm beginning to think I've found the right person and his occupation, as you say, was grossly inflated. This is John in 1881 Name: John Kirkham Age in 1881: 66 Age months: 0 Estimated birth year: abt 1815 Relationship to head-of-household: Pauper Inmate Household: View other family members Family and neighbors: View neighbors Gender: Male Where born: Portwood, Cheshire, England Address: 'Manchester Workhouse' Crumpsall Manchester Civil parish: Crumpsall County/Island: Lancashire Condition as to marriage: Widow Occupation: General Labourer Education: View Image Employment status: View Image Source information: RG11/4027 Registration district: Prestwich Sub-registration district: Cheetham ED, institution, or vessel: Manchester Workhouse 3 Folio: 53 Page: 24

I can't find John on the 1881. There are 114 John Kirkhams in Lancashire, but only 4 in Manchester and none of them are the right age! nell

I wouldn't get too hung up about the dates not fitting her age exactly. You are right not to try and bend the facts to fit, but the fact that he is listed as a 'retired farmer' in the workhouse makes me think that his occupation as 'butcher' might also be a bit fanciful. I had a great-uncle whose father was variously described on census and certificates as a dairyman or milk carrier. Great-uncle's wedding cert has his as a 'provisions merchant'. My father told me in good faith that he believed this man (the great uncle) had been in charge of Tilbury docks. He was actually a fireman there, so there was some fabrication going on. I also have an ag lab who became a farmer on his daughter's cert (in your dreams!). nell

FACT: Harriet Kirkham marries Joseph Solomon Turner 23rd May 1885, registered Chorlton, Lancashire. Her age stated as 20, father John Kirkham, occupation Butcher. FACT: Joseph's brother John Alfred married Hannah Kirkham on 6 June 1891. Her father, John Kirkham, occupation Butcher, so I conclude they are sisters. FACT: Every John Kirkham in Lancashire on the censi checked and the only one I can see who was a Butcher died unmarried in 1866. So...stumped for a while but have now located an entry on IGI, right area, Harriet Kirkham baptised 22 Sep 1863, parents John and Martha. 3 other siblings, including a sister Hannah baptised in 1857. It all seems very promising despite an 1863 birth doesn't fit with being 20 in 1885 and there doesn't seem to be a birth reg that fits but she isn't consistent with her age and maybe she was never registered. My biggest ???? with it all is that father John is not a Butcher. In 61, he's a Book-keeper, 71 a Labourer in a Timber yard and by 1881, he's a widowed Pauper Inmate at Manchester Workhouse, is there in 1891 (occupation says Retired Farmer!) and conclude that he probably died there, death Dec 1891. I can't find another Harriet with a sister Hannah and a father called John anywhere so my gut instinct is that the baptism I found is my Harriet. But the father's occupation part bugs me. The only thing I can think of is that because their new father in law was a Gas Meter Inspector (quite respectable and had money), did the girls lie about their father's occupation rather than admit that he was a General Labourer who was now a Workhouse inmate to appear more respectable? I know I'll never be able to prove that they did/didn't but does that seem likely? Everything else points to this being my Harriet but don't want to bend the facts to fit and end up adopting the wrong person. Any thoughts appreciated cos this woman is driving me nuts! Thanks Lou

Apologies for the repetition but for some reason during my recent absence from the boards, my original thread on my elusive gggrandmother, Harriet Kirkham, has been removed! I've done some further 'digging' and now have some encouraging findings, just one thing doesn't add up on which I'd appreciate some opinions! Facts below: