Genealogy Chat

As my old granny used to say ''My Ghast is flabbered'' Gawd, since when did being adopted become a disabilty/ special need? I wonder what other special dispensations we can get? I wait with baited breath for the outcome of this one! Alice

Shiela, i am shocked,you know that i started my slippery slope of crime at 3 months not two. lol. I'm overwhelmed by the responses i've had,and thank you all publicly for your comments,advice and good wishes. Hopefully it is a case of a slightly OTT attitude by the company concerned,and a solution can be found. Let's hope it's an isolated case but i fear it may not be. Something to bear in mind for the future for all of us anyhow. Thanks and huge hugs to everyone Glen xx To be continued

Hi Glen, You go for it ;O) if he is being b****y minded so can you, why is he so bothered about there being 3 months difference between your date of birth and the date of the adoption cert? did it occur to him the first one could have been lost, or does he think you planned a life of crime and corruption at 2 months old and ordered a fake cert in advance ? ;O) Seriously this request for a full cert, could cause problems and shocks for some people. My mother gold bless her had a few copies of my birth cert, in case one was lost, so i would not have to order one and find out I was adopted, there are going to be cases if this becomes law where this will happen. I do know of 1 or 2 cases where people have gone to order their certs from GRO and then found out they where adopted. But in my case so far, my short cert, is all I have ever needed, although I have my orignal certificate, I have not seen a full copy of my adoption one. Never mind if he consults with other departments then maybe he will defer to you in this matter, hopefully, so because as you say, it should be your right if you want to keep your adoption private or not, and your deciscion who you disclose it too. Hope this all end well for you! Sheila

Presumably he is checking with other departments within the company,to clarify the procedure. Maybe i am being bloody minded,but i still object to the need to supply doc's which have references to my adopted parents.Maybe i'm wrong but what have they got to do with my job application? Throughout several threads i have revealed certain details about myself and my adoption,but i choose what and where to reveal. Nobody actually compels me to do so.

I think you should refer your employer to the GRO website which gives the following, very clear explanation about Adoption Certificates: Adoptions Adoption certificates What is an adoption certificate and is there more than one type? An adoption certificate is a replacement birth certificate but in an adopted person's new name. It is expected to be used by an adopted person for all legal and administrative purposes in place of the original birth certificate. The main difference between the two documents is the addition of court particulars on an adoption certificate. This can be found at: http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/adoptions/adoptioncertificates/index.asp If he has never encountered an adoptee before he may not understand what being adopted entails HOWEVER the reason a short adoption cert is identical to a short birth cert is because, in legal terms, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE and it can be produced without giving away an adoptee's personal status which is no-one's business but theirs. Again, good luck Glen, Liz

I think the insistence on birth certificates as ID is to verify an official correlation between name & dob. (When I moved house, I had to have one of the new driving lics and had to send off my birth cert - as we know, I could have been someone else applying in my name and using my cert) However, producing a birth cert allows the person doing the issuing to tick boxes on their procedure check list, and covers them as having met with the requirements of the law/regulations. Glen, does the gentleman concerned know that you are a special case and may require a different approach? Surely the company has a legal department, who can make themselves au fait with the special circumstances of adoptees and work around this? Otherwise it is a contravention of any special needs policy, which they should have in place and should be following. The problem is, I think, that adoptees are a minority group and most people are unaware of this kind of difficulty - they only think of physical and mental differences, and have no knowledge of the legal aspect of adoption. Jay

Latest update; (1) ' I am required to provide a birth certificate to verify my identity' (2) ' The certificate should be in the same name as my employment application' (3) 'A short certificate is not satisfactory' (4) ' Contrary to my comments (previous phone call this morning) a certificate IS proof of identity.' I posed the following points,which some may think are nitpicking,some may not,i invite any comments either for or against to be posted here for all to see. (1)A certificate is not proof of identity,and states asmuch on it. (2)My certificate in my current name is not a birth certificate,(and also he queries why it is dated 11 months later tham my DOB) (3)Why? (4)So why does it state a cert is not to be used to verify identity. I did also ask if i refused to comply with the full cert requirement,on the grounds that other living persons were named on it,would i jeopardise my prospects of employment,and if so why? I.m now awaiting his reply Glen

Hi Glen, There are 2 points here you are aware that you can get a full copy of your post adoption birth cert, but it will cost 11.50 the form you fill in asks for your adoptive parents name etc and some personal information, this is to make sure that only the adoptee can obtain this. The second point is does you employee have the right to inist on a full cert? Idon't think so when I registered my children's births we had to obtain the short cert this is a lot cheaper, the full one was an optional extra fee, and up to you whether your purchesed it,, we chose to do this. However, a lot of people do not, especially older people where money was scarce, so you should just give him your short cert, if this is not enough for him tell him he can pay for full one, I am sure if you check with CAB this is all your required to supply. Sheila

so, he wants a birth cert naming your birth parents? or Your adoptive ones?

Hi again Liz, I had missed your post about the other employees,apparently it is 'company policy'. Maybe they have come across this before and the other employee(s) never questioned it,the part that really bugs me though is the 'requirement' gives disclosure about persons other rhan myself,who have no connection to the job or the company. I can't honestly see any logical or legal reason why the document that he will accept should have to be the long version.He can't give me a reason at the moment. It's all quite amicable at the moment,but it makes you wonder what he will gain from knowing my 'parentage' so to speak. I have to nip to the factory my other half works in,16 different nationalities all working through agencies. AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH again.

personally , i'd be shoving the post adoption cert - short- under his nose, if it isnt enough, ask why, and take legal advice at the CAB. Alice

Hi Glen, That is why I asked if the other employees had also had to produce their full certificate. If they have not, then you are certainly being discriminated against. Every prospective employee should be treated in exactly the same way, regardless of race, colour, sex, religion AND adoptive status. Liz x

The thought that went through my mind was discrimination,maybe it sounds a little dramatic,but it is based on his perception of what is or isn't acceptable and what i can or would be willing to provide. I know he has certain obligations to fulfill,but if i were in his shoes i would be more concerned about security and safety than whether a certificate 'proves' identity. At this rate with the way things are i'll be claiming stress related compensation.(just kiddng) Union involvement could well be an option,never been a huge fan of the union but justsometimes they do have a use,for me at any rate. Glen

I'm getting cross reading this too Glen. Bureacracy gone too far, in my opinion. Have you considered seeking legal opinion on the validity of employer's request? When my hubby was asked to show his birth certificate by that recruitment agency, they did actually send him the copy of the Govt legislation they say they are working to. It says the employer has a duty to establish the applicant/employee has the right to work in the UK. (If you are a British national this is automatic.) What the law does NOT state is how this is to be proved. Birth certs and passports are usually taken as proof of nationality - BUT as ** we ** all know (because it says on it) a birth cert is not proof of identity. If your employer is INSISTING that a full cert is the only way, because of the change of name, he is guilty of discrimination against adoptees, isn't he. [this also begs the question about how the Bulger killers are managing with their 'new' identities, but that's very much another matter] At the very least, you ought to be able to establish some dialogue as to what sort of proof is acceptable. A third party getting involved might help. Dont suppose you're in a Trade Union? If it was me I'd take this further, on a point of principle, however I can appreciate you might not want to get off on the wrong foot with new employer. best of luck.

Alice,all i would provide is my short post adoption cert,as you say it has my current name and an English district on it.I can't see what he would gain getting my parents names. Lindy,good idea,basically the same as the endorsing signature you have to provide the DVLA for verification of your photo for a driving licence. I feel a phone call coming. Not that it makes much difference i should say my adoption is under English law the company is Scottish subsiduary of multi national pan european firm. Glen

Alice, This is confusing me now too! I had assumed that it was the short adoption certificate which the employer had rejected, but that would show the same name as the full one. Glen, If your employer is rejecting your *original* birth certificate in your birth name, then he is right to do so as that person no longer exists, if you get my drift. As I said previously, that certificate is only of sentimental and/ or curiosity value to you yourself. Liz x

I'm totally confused now, are you showing him your post or pre adoption cert then? Your post adoption cert is surely the name you use? or is this more complicated than it seems ?? just to re-iterate, NO-ONE bar no one has the right to demand to see your pre adoption cert.

Nuge for Lindy,

Just a thought would your gp write a letter saying that he/she has known your for x number of years? xxhugxx

Hi all,many hanks for the comments and insights,and especially for the support. I know several of the names on this thread as we often cross paths elsewherei have just spoken to the person asking for the certs and will try to explain further. He says he i have to prove my identity,and prove i can legally work without a work permit,this can only be done with a long birth certificate or a passport. I do not have a passport,do not want one (his trucks run abroad at times and i don't want to do that) and don't feel obliged to obtain one just to prove my citizenship,nationality or whatever. However as my birth cert is in a different name to the one i am known by he will accept the long adoption certificate,but not the short one. Seeing as the extra information on the long one relates to court names dates and the names,occupations etc of my adoptive parents (who are still alive) i don't see the need to provide those details,and object to doing so.Bearing in mind this is a document first issued in the mid 1960's,it is somewhat useless anyhow for his purposes. I could ask for permission from my parents to provide him with the cert complete with thier names on it,but seeing as one of them is suffering with Parkinsons and dimensia it's not really possible to say whether they know what they are consenting to,and what does it all prove anyway? Makes you think doesn't it,if the company has such an attitude to obtaining the info,how do they store it,and how easily would they pass it on. And all this for a document with no legal merit as a form of identity. Glen