Genealogy Chat

The FOIA is online at: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/20000036.htm It's quite long and dull, but there are several reasons why census data is excluded. As mentioned above, the information is available elsewhere. FOIA also excludes information 'held by the public authority with a view to its publication, by the authority or any other person, at some future date (whether determined or not),'. If TNA does plan to have transcriptions or images made, then it's exempt under this. If not, then it probably comes under cost exemptions. This is not the cost of a 50p photocopy and postage, but the man-hours required to search through miles of paper, especially as the law states you must get your response within 20 working days. There are no extra staff and no extra pennies in the bank. Staff are expected to do FOIA requests on top of their existing workload, and will just not be able to hunt down John Smith somewhere in London. If the census is really in as bad a condition as has been made out, then you wouldn't be allowed to browse through the millions of sheets anyway. If something is in too poor a condition to be handled without further damage, TNA staff have the right not to produce it, whether it's released tomorrow or in 2012.

The FOIA does not just cover the official secrets act - it covers all information held by a public authority and sits alongside the data protection act. Having said that, OC, you are absolutely right that there are other ways of accessing the necessary information. One of the clauses in the FOIA is that the authoirty is absolved from releasing a particular piece of information if it is available in the public arena elsewhere. As most of the details would be available, from the sources you mention, this is a get out clause. A FOIA request must be specific and fishing expeditions would not be considered. So unless someting drastic happens, which it won't for the very reasons you say, the 1911 will remain hidden as per the existing rules. Ian

The Freedom of Information act does not apply to Census. It applies to information covered by the Official Secrets Act - the census was not covered by the Freedom of inofrmation Act. All Censuses are taken under compulsion and it has been decided that a blanket 100 year rule will apply - this is better than the original decision, which was that ALL censuses would be private - FOR EVER. There seems to be a general refusal to understand that the 1911 is in an extremely poor condition. Even if they start on it tomorrow, it cannot possibly be ready before the due date, and I have my doubts that it will be ready by then. When yoiu say 'release it early' what do you mean? Should we all go along to the Warehouse, and be handed soggy bundles of paper, tied up with string, and be allowed to search through them as we wish? I repeat: there are other ways to search for people in 1911 - Electoral Rolls, Rates Books, Street Directories, Trade Directories, Post Office Directories - on and on. Just think - you might find your Ancestors BEFORE the 1911 comes out. Olde Crone

So what would happen if we were all to ask for information under the Freedom of Information Act, 2000? Would they be required to provide it under that legislation? If so, if they were bombarded with requests, they might see the sense in releasing the info. Jim

My MP Peter Lilley wrote to me: 'I understand your concerns on this matter and have taken up the issues raised with the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affiars, The Rt Hon Lord Falconer QC. As soon as I receive a reply, I shall be in touch. However, the Deupty Speaker has warned Members that Early Day Motions are in danger of losing all credibility as they are being signed indiscriminately. I, therefore, make it my practice to sign only those which relate specifically to my cosntituency or with which I have been personally involved.' But I doubt if anything much will happen before 2012 anyway. Quite honestly, I'm having enough trouble finding my rellies on all the publicly-available censuses anyway, without having to wade through pages and pages of unreadable stuff. I believe the 1911 is just the original sheets filled in by head of household, so not even one sheet covering several households. I also understand that releasing the census to the public, whether before or after 2012 doesn't mean indexing, scanning or otherwise making it easy to search. They just have to give you access to it and its rather smelly. But it would be fab if we could see the 1921 early - this would bring me up to my parents' births - just. I know the 1931 was destroyed and the 1941 was never taken, so I am not too depressed that I won't live long enough to see them!!! nell

Audrey I am going to hit the big 70 this year and I wasn't sure I would make it past a year when I retired. Now I have to keep my fingers crossed for some old moldy papers that MIGHT get transcribred? I'll leave it up to whoever decides they want more info when I'm gone.

I had a letter back today from my MP saying, 'I am pleased to say that I have signed the Early Day Motion 1189'. A good result after I sent him an e-mail about 2 weeks ago. Well chuffed, may not make a difference but at least he listened. Nicky

I doubt that they still live in the same house as they did in the 1911 census, it seems people moved a lot in those times.

Maybe we could? But if its condition is so bad why don't they start now and get it reasonable and then it could be release earlier I dont think there can be that many ppl 95 years old and are that bothered about census returns.

Well why dont we bombard the baroness with letters? Maybe she'll change her mind?

She didn't sign it an basically we're going to have to wait!

So what was the outcome of the EDM?

You CAN - and have always been able to - get specific information from any census not yet released. But it has to be specific, concerning one person only and you have to have an EXTREMELY good reason for wanting to know. Noseyness is not enough! It is also extremely expensive and takes ages. The 1911 census cannot be released tomorrow, or any time in the neare future - they havent even started on it yet. In addition, it is in extremely poor condition, being waterlogged and mouse-ridden. Don't hold your breath - find another way to search! Olde Crone

You CAN - and have always been able to - get specific information from any census not yet released. But it has to be specific, concerning one person only and you have to have an EXTREMELY good reason for wanting to know. Noseyness is not enough! It is also extremely expensive and takes ages. The 1911 census cannot be released tomorrow, or any time in the neare future - they havent even started on it yet. In addition, it is in extremely poor condition, being waterlogged and mouse-ridden. Don't hold your breath - find another way to search! Olde Crone

Pauline, do you think 'they' would let old people like me take a peek if we proved how old we are - with the thought that we probably won't be around to benefit from the next reveal? lol... Audrey

I don't think its going to be released any earlier, just hope I live long enough to see it..

I wrote to my MP about and early release of the 1911 census this is the reply: - Thank you for your e-mailasking me to sign the Early Day Motion on the release of information in the 1911 census. My position as Parliamentary Private secretary to Des Browne MP, the chief secretary to the treasury, prevents me from signing EDM's but I do understand that people involved in family history research would find early release of the information helpful. I understand that the decision to retain the provsion not to release information from the census was taken because the information is gathered under compulsion. In addition later census forms have included an undertaking to release the information at the National Archives after 100 years and not before so it was felt that the undertaking should apply to all census documents not yet released. As you know the census includes very specific family information about the relationships within the households and also where people lived. Of course, this what makes the census returns of such value to genealogists but has to be recognised that in the case of the 1911 census it my well contain information about people who are still alive who my have their own reasons for the information not to be generally available. I have already written to the Minister responsible for the national archieve, Baroness Ashton, and will let you have a copy of her reply when it is arrives. The EDM urges the Information Commissioner to take and early opportunity to publish advice on the decision about the census so I have also written to him to ask him about his intensions. I will write to you again as soon as I have a reply. Kali Mountford MP