Genealogy Chat

The website that names Elizabeth Hayward as the mother of Thomas Moore Musgrave makes me laugh! They searched the IGI for the parents marriage and says this one (in Leeds) is the only candidate.....There are actaully several candidates on the IGI as well as this one.....but in any case why should the marriage be on the IGI at all!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Anyway.....to clarify...... we have James Colyer b 1787 in Farningham, Kent Mary Pawley b 1788 in Orpington Kent living in Peckham....... and Thomas Moore Musgrave b 1774 in London (St Lawrence Jewry) Mary ??? b 1801 - 1806 living in Bath. Mary Musgrave can't be the mum of Ann, the dau Thomas left all his money to, unless her age is wrong in 1851, as she is too young! (UPDATE - Her age IS wrong in 1851. She was born about 1822, so Mary could be Ann's mum after all!) Merry

Am I right in thinking this letter sent to the Colyer family was sent before the stamps were supposed to be used?? I read something about ''Only the postmaster would have dared to take a stamp from the full sheet without authorisation'' (my own words!)......So that would suggest the recipient would me friend/family. Merry

methinks daughter Ann born about 1822, if she was 32 when he died in 1854.

Well spotted Carol! Ann's age is mistranscribed in 1851. She was 28 not 38! Merry

Prior to 1802 Musgrave had residence overseas, and was well qualified in several continental languages, particularly Portuguese & German. Apart from a mention in his father’s will (proved 31 Dec. 1788), little is known of Musgrave until he became Private Secretary to Lord Pelham, (Secretary of State for the Home Department). In 1803 he wrote a political pamphlet “A candid appeal to public confidence”. He was transferred to the Alien's Department in 1804. In 1806 Musgrave accepted, at the hands of Lord Minto, the post of Secretary tothe Government of Ireland, returned to his old position in the Alien’s Office – kept open for him by the Secretary of State, Earl Spencer. In 1816 a revision of Secretary of State's Office took place. As a result Musgrave was released from his position as Secretary and Confidential Superintendent of the Alien's Office. 'But the judicious and able manner with which he had performed its important duties induced the Commissioners of the Treasury to compensate the loss of this office by conferring on him a pension.' In 1816 the Earl of Chichester (Postmaster General) appointed Musgrave as Mail Agent of Lisbon. Musgrave found opportunities, arising from his intercourse with the most distinguished families in Lisbon, in addition to his personal observance of the course of events, to collect political information which was regularly communicated to the Post Master General. Sometimes this was sufficiently important to be passed to Cabinet Ministers. In 1821 Francis Freeling requested the appointment of an Agent at Lisbon to replace Musgrave and later that year he was Mail Agent at Falmouth, the Premier Packet Station in the U.K. By 1824 Musgrave had completed the transfer of Mail Packets from GPO to Admiralty and his additional role, Falmouth Postmaster taken by William Gay. In 1824 Musgrave became Comptroller of the Two-penny Post, London until 1833 when the Commision of Enquiry recommended that the duties of the Comptroller Accountant and Collector of TPP should come under the GPO. Musgrave was offered Postmaster Generalship of Jamaica, which he refused because of the climate and his health. From 1833 to 1854 he became Postmaster of Bath Musgrave must have received the new Twopenny blue Mulready envelopes by 6th May 1840 for he posted one of these on that day. Only 3 Twopenny envelopes are known to have been used on 6th May 1840 and the one sent by Musgrave is now held by the museum. It was addressed to a Miss V. Tudor of Kelston Knowle. Her father, a noted surgeon, would have been known by Musgrave. Is it possible that the Bath Postmaster wrote her a note suggesting she keep it for posterity, which she did. On 4 Sept 1854 Musgrave died at No. 10 Edward Street, Bath. His daughter Anne, aged 32, was living with him at the time, and in his will he bequeaths everything to her. This is from Bath Postal Museum Site, the other information on here is from The South London Press and the Peckham Society.

So Thomas Musgrave's father was : Thomas Musgrave, Mercer of Milk Street London, Will proved 31 December 1788 Merry

So our most obvious gap in what we know is info on Mary, Thomas Musgrave's wife? Merry

Looks as if Thomas Musgrave was a naughty boy in Falmouth and his daughter Ann who he left everything to, but doesn't seem to be around when Thomas' wife is alive (in 1841), was illegitimate! R Rogers and Son, Helston, solicitors BOROUGH OF HELSTON OVERSEERS OF THE POOR Bastardy bonds and depositions FILE - [no title or date] - ref. RO/4243 Scope and Content Ann Parkins Edwards of Falmouth, residing in Helston, single now with child. Bond: Thos. Moore Musgrave of Falmouth, esq. (father), Fras. Pender of Falmouth, gent. £100. Oooh-errr! Doesn't help the stamp problem though! Merry

From this site: http://www.gbstamps(.)com/gbcc/gbcc_bath_postal_mus.html (remove brackets) ''In 1840, the then Postmaster of Bath, Thomas Moore Musgrave, received supplies of the new Penny Black on May 1st — five days ahead of the stamp’s official first day of use. Musgrave’s daughter, Anne, (so legend has it) was aware of the arrival of these novelties and, a day later, having decided to write some letters to a few friends, thought it might be fun to attach to each of them one of these new stamps. Musgrave did not dare cancel the stamps in Bath (thought he did apply a date stamp, as shown in the image on the left), but a copy has survived with the stamp cancelled on arrival in London with a tombstone post-paid cancellation.'' So, maybe the Colyer's were just friends? Merry

Well merry looks like museum never had any proof of Marriage of Thomas Moore to Mary but think they did live together was the daughter you found born in Cornwall called Ann and do you think it's the same person everything was left to. The museum said if we have any questions we can email [email protected].

Where was Ann Musgrave in 1841? James Colyer in 1841 - my James often appear as Thomas. Believe it or not, the two names look very similar in florid script. OC

Good question Crone........esp as she was supposed to be ''at home'' with Thomas the postmaster in 1840, when she used the stamps to send her letters! Maybe it was really his dau, Mary, who posted the letters (the girl on the 1841 census) and Ann only reappeared after wife, Mary's death? Between 1841 and 1851 two Mary Musgraves died in Bath district, so I'm guessing that's the wife and the legitimate daughter. I had previously thought Ann might be masquerading as Mary in 1841! It doesn't help that Ann might have been known as Edwards in 1841.....How many Ann Edwards might there be????!!! Merry

Here is the baptism of the illegitimate Ann!! ANN EDWARDS Female -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: 09 NOV 1822 Christening: 03 DEC 1824 Falmouth, Cornwall, England -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Parents: Father: THOMAS MOORE MUSGRAVE Mother: ANN EDWARDS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Messages: Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. Merry

Hmmm....he obviously had regular contact/knowledge of Ann, for her to suddenly be living with him and using his name. So - fond of her mother, was he? Did he perhaps, marry her mother in Cornwall at some point, her mother died and he took Ann on? And Mary was a live in, not legally a wife? Or a second wife? OC

Ohhhh why can't they ALL have unusual names!!! The Bastardy thing says the mother was Ann Parkins Edwards. This Ann was born in Falmouth in 1804. In 1841 in Falmouth there is an Ann Edwards living alone, aged 35, occupation ''spinster'' lol Wonder if that's her?? Maybe not......No way to tell..... I think the daughter, Ann, may have been brought up in Camberwell (paid for by the postmaster?)......and this is how she knows the Colyer family. However, then we have the wrong daughter licking the stamps! We need Ann in Bath in 1840, or we need his other daughter Mary to be friends with the Colyers! Oh, flippin' 'eck! Merry

Merry I have found another version of the Bastardy Order, held by a Solicitor in Helston, mother and child not named, but same father's name and sponsor, so probably the same child...probably... OC

You could pop along and look at it!!! Wonder why he didn't leave anything to his other surviving children? Son, Charles, died in Melborne in 1864, according to TMM's grave stone. Merry

OK, I have found this, which may or may not be significant: 12 Sept 1840 Mortgage (Insurance Policy) Assignment between 1. Thomas Moore Musgrave of Bath, gent, and 2.Mary Hamilton Nesbitt Ferguson, wife of Robert Ferguson of Raith Kirkcaldy. I was just wondering - all these Mary's? OC

I'm willing to purchase Thomas Moore musgraves will (which is on Documents Online) if we don't already have a proper copy - just to see if there is anyone other than Ann mentioned Won't be able to do it til I get home from work though - which will be about 7.30ish

Hmmmmmmmm..........1840?! He seems to get about a bit....! (did you read all that stuff Carol Posted? Surprised he had time for any relationships!) Merry