Genealogy Chat

Anyone see it? I would have liked to see the illegitimacy issue raised discussed more than the military history aspect personally. Was it a total disgrace to have a child out of wedlock in 1914? I know about the situation as per the 2nd World War but not sure whether more of a blind eye was turned in earlier times? I am reasonably new to all this but did wonder about the middle name of the child, Bert, wasn't it Dawson? Isn't this a big clue as to what the father may have been called? Couldn't they have tried to investigate this avenue. Perhaps they did and Dawson was a dead end/too common a surname?? Interestingly many of the illegitmate births in my tree tend to be about the 1840 mark and most women went on to marry a few years afterwards. Wouldn't men have avoided them and viewed them as fallen women etc (Tess of the D'ubervilles...etc)??

Hi Julia, There's another thread about this on the general board. Herbert Dawson Hallsworth died in 1988 in Lincolnshire, so he either kept that name - in which case people tonight will have recognised it- or he used another name and the death was registered under both names. Wonder if Herbert has children? I would have liked to have gone back at least one more generation. There was no census info on tonight's programme which I thought was a shame. Janice

Hi, I was surprised that the child was given the fathers name a his surname. The illegitimate certs that I have don't name the father and the child has the mothers surname. My certs are pre 1900's but I wouldn't have thought that would make any difference regarding the childs surname. I think Herbert could have been handed over to the fathers family. Kept.

Kept, If you looked carefully, Herbert and Dawson were both forenames. I enjoyed it and was really pleased that at least programme focused entirely on one generation. As for no census, well this is exactly the situation most people are in at the start of their quest. It would be so boring if exactly the same sources and research methods were used every programme. Jay

Hi Julia. My gran, still living, was born in 1918 and was illegitimate. Her mum was 17 at the time and as it happened during WW1 I have often wondered if the father went away to war and never came back. My great gran NEVER told my gran who her father was and it does leave an awful blank on my tree. I do know though that my gran had the most happiest childhood being raised by her grandparents who 100% stood by my great gran and woe betide anyone who said anything detrimental. Nicky

I don't think there is a hard and fast rule on illegitimacy. Yes there are lots of stories about babies being found on doorsteps etc - but there are today, when unmarried parents are often the norm, rather than the exception. Servant girls who got pregnant would often be sacked by their employers and so on. But the illegitimate children I have in my family were born in the country and raised by other family members - grandparents, aunts, uncles etc and seem to have been accepted as family. Some people believe blood is thicker than water and stick by family members no matter what. Others disown family who do things they disapprove of. No doubt our ancestors were the same. I get the impression that being illegitimate became more of a stigma when people moved out of villages - where you couldn't keep secrets! - and into towns, where they became people trying to keep up appearances & respectability, hiding behind the net curtains. nell

As to Robert Lindsay's uncle, I assumed that they were unable to know if Herbert went through life as Herbert Dawson, or under his mother's maiden name, or if he was adopted informally and had his name changed. I guess it would be a bit needle=haystack. Wouldn't mind betting that Robert - who seemed very interested - would want to try to find out later.

Herbert Dawson Hallsworth died 1988 in Lincolnshire, in case there is anybody who doesn't know that by now! Kate.

I think you may well be right Kate/Shelia, I don't think there was much 'adoption' about in the early 1900's was there? I also have in my family, mothers that have used the 'fathers name' as a middle name for the son, I have a William John Smith C******born 1909, in the 1901 census mum aged 9 is a visitor in the Smith's household, who just happen to have a son called John Smith, !!!! and 8 years later there is mum 'holding the baby' who just happens to be callled William John Smith C******, to much of a coincidence I think....of course she was unmarried........Lilly

My Grandfather was born in 1895 and Im lucky enough to have a letter from him to my Mum dated 1949. He tell's her how his Mother had lost most of her hair when she had him and it never did grow back because they had such an awful time. The reason he wrote her the letter was because she'd just had a baby and I know she had a pretty bad time of it. Up until recently, the 70's, all single mothers were treated like outcasts. My Grandfather was also given a surname for a middle name.

I think this was a good example of building up a full picture of each generation before starting on the next. It so happened that the stories of both grandfathers and their immediate families was sufficient to make an interesting programme.

Susan -- the blue cert that you have was issued for a special low fee, and was only supposed to be used to show that a child was old enough to start work. People applied for them when their child was ready to start work, if they didn't have any other proof of age. There's no connection with illegitimacy. The application form was filled in and signed by the parent on the front of the sheet, and then the register entry was copied out by the registrar on the back. This means the application side is an actual sample of your grandparent's handwriting and signature, not a registrar's transcription. The certs were intended to be treated as disposable, and most people probably threw them away once they'd been seen by the employer.

Yes, I enjoyed last night's programme and sat there wishing that I had all the experts to-hand and being able to jet off to various places to tread the paths of my ancestors, as these celebrities do! The bit where he was searching for the burial of the 3 yr old Patricia Ann and found her on the anniversary of her burial really shocked him, didn't it? I know exactly how he felt. Recently (on August 16th), a Genes member (Patricia Horner) kindly did some searching for me at her local Wiltshire records office to locate the marriage of my 5xG Grandparents...and we were both spooked when she found them...on the 220th anniversary of their marriage (16 August 1786)! I will never forget that day. Funny how things like that happen, isn't it?

hi all, yes i enjoyed last nights programme as well, but was really frustrated at the ease Robert Lindsey found the military records, i have been trying for nearly 2 years now and have not had a single breakthrough, whoever helped him i wish would help me!!

Really enjoyed reading all the posts. How did you find out surname of Herbert was Hallsworth? Or am I missing something v obvious? Why didn't they suggest that Dawson, given as a middle name, might have been the father's surname?

To Julia Bell Well the entry for the birth was shown on the episode and said Herbert Dawson Hallsworth - Herbert Dawson were his two christian names. That and Hannah's maiden name was Hallsworth.... Alex

Hi
I am Herberts granddaughter, I can confirm that Herbert was born to Hannah Hallsworth out of wedlock and he was adopted we believe to the Dawson’s,so he is the brother of Joyce grace and Elsie Dunmore we would love anyone with anymore information to contact me or if there are any relatives out there to shed some more light.

Thankyou
Tina xx

Welcome to the boards, Tina.

As the title of this thread refers to Robert Lindsay, you might be better to start a new thread of your own, entitled "Herbert Dawson Hallsworth" or similar, in order to attract the attention of relatives, if there are any.

Tell us (non-relatives, but willing helpers!) what you know already, but also reference this 14-year-old thread, to avoid duplication of research (not that much has been done on this thread).

For interest, here's the other thread mentioned in the second post on this one:
https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_chat/thread/748885

However, it doesn't have even as much info as this one - which isn't much..

Normally, I would suggest looking at "Search all member trees" under "Search" at the top right of this page, and contacting any tree owner who has him in their tree - but there don't seem to be any in this instance.

HERBERT D
Last name HALLSWORTH
Birth year 1919
Birth quarter 2
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name Halleworth
District Basford
County Nottinghamshire
Country England
Volume 7B
Page 289

HERBERT DAWSON
Last name HALLSWORTH
Birth year 1919
Place ILKESTON
Reference IB/156/074
Register office Erewash (Ilkeston)
Subdistrict Ilkeston
County Derbyshire

Name: Hannah Hallsworth
Registration Date: Apr 1926
[May 1926]
[Jun 1926]
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Basford
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Spouse: Raymond Dunmore
Volume Number: 7b
Page Number: 520

Name: Hannah Dunmore
Death Age: 62
Birth Date: abt 1901
Registration Date: Jul 1963
[Aug 1963]
[Sep 1963]
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Nottingham
Inferred County: Nottinghamshire
Volume: 3c
Page: 295

in the 1939 England and Wales Register
View 1939 England and Wales Register

Report a problem

Name: Raymond Dunmore
Gender: Male
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 7 Jan 1897
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 2 New Road.
Residence Place: Beeston and Stapleford, Nottinghamshire, England
Occupation: Dryer & Conditioner Silk
Schedule Number: 271
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: RNCC
Registration district: 429.3
Inferred Spouse: Hannah Dunmore
Household Members:
Name
Raymond Dunmore
Hannah Dunmore
This record is officially closed.
This record is officially closed.
This record is officially closed.
Dorothy Hallsworth 1920

DOROTHY H
Last name HALLSWORTH
Birth year 1920
Birth quarter 1
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name Hallsworth
District Nottingham


Dorothy Eileen
Last name Hallsworth
Sex Female
Marriage year 1946
Parish St.Mary
Place Ilkeston
Spouse's first name Reginald
Spouse's last name Cope

DOROTHY EILEEN
Last name COPE
Gender Female
Birth day 17
Birth month 3
Birth year 1920
Age -
Death quarter 2
Death year 2003
District Nottingham

daughter born 1947 and son 1951 in ilkeston
he married 1972 ilkeston
she married 1978