Genealogy Chat

was Johann Karl Wilhelm Gobel, born 1844 in Wurtemberg. He came to London in the 1860s, married and settled in the east end of London. During the first world war he was a grocer/greengrocer in E1, and I am wondering if there is any way of finding out if he was interned during the war. I can imagine a shop in Poplar/Bow with the name of Gobel over it would have attracted unpleasant attention.

Have you tried googling?

Called himself John Charles William in 1911

Probably not considered a threat at 70+ years of age, but check

Advice here about researching internees may help:

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/internees/

He was in the workhouse during most of WW1 - at least I assume this is him:


John C W Gobel
in the London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1921
Name John C W Gobel
Admission Age 70
Discharge Age 74
Record Type Admission
Birth Date 1845
Admission Date 13 May 1915
Admission Place Poplar, Tower Hamlets, City of London, England
Discharge Date 10 May 1919
Discharge Place Poplar, Tower Hamlets, City of London, England



Readmitted later in May 1919:

Jno C W Gobel
in the London, England, Workhouse Admission and Discharge Records, 1764-1921
Name Jno C W Gobel
Admission Age 74
Record Type Admission
Birth Date 1845
Admission Date 29 May 1919
Admission Place Poplar, Tower Hamlets, City of London, England


There's no reason given for admission.

Britain, Enemy Aliens and Internees, First and Second World Wars (FindMyPast)

Gobel, 1844 YOB +-2yrs - No exact match
Goebel, 1844 YOB +- 2yrs - No exact match


1 result for J Gobel

Johann Conrad Gobel
Interment of Enemy Aliens During 1914-1918

https://www.workhouses.org.uk/Poplar/

As per ErikaH entry

1911 Census For England & Wales
15 Chiltern Road Bromley by Bow, Poplar Borough, London & Middlesex, England

John Charles William Gobel Head Married Male 66 184 Postman Germany
Charlotte Gobel Wife - Female 58 1853 London Stepney

Johan/Johannes/John CONRAD Gobel (in Jink20's post at 00:27) was a different person.
He was born in Hackney in 1862.
His father, also called Johannes/John Conrad Gobel, born c1831, immigrated to London at some point before 1861, married in Hackney in 1861, and died in Middlesex , 5 June 1915.

If the 1911 is the right man, he was a ‘patient’ in 1921………out-of-work Postman, married, recorded as William
It may be that he and Charlotte both died in 1927

he was a grocer in 1901 - obviously changed occupation BEFORE 1911

He is recorded as BRITISH subject in 1901

Possibly not the right man above, unless he married twice

William Gobel m Charlotte Mitchell in 1900

Johan Karl W m. In 1867

We need Janet's input re his marriage (s).

Births of children from the 1867 marriage:

GOBEL, ROSINA mmn VIOHL
GRO Reference: 1868 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE IN THE EAST Volume 01C Page 414

GOBEL, BERTHA KATHARINA mmn VIOHL
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 555

GOBEL, WILLIAM mmn VIOHL
GRO Reference: 1870 J Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 565

GOBEL, JOHN mmn VIOHL
GRO Reference: 1872 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 609

GOBEL, KARL mmn VHIOL
GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 569

GOBEL, JUSTINE KARALINE HENRYETTE mmn YIOHL
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 619

GOBEL, HENRY GEORGE mmn YHOIL
GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in MILE END OLD TOWN Volume 01C Page 547


Karl and Rosina both died as infants.


Possible death of first wife Margaretta Katerina ????:

Deaths Sep 1899 (>99%)
Gobel Margaret 59 Poplar 1c 446

If so, a second marriage in 1900 is feasible.

Can't look anything up on Ancestry at the moment - it keeps saying "This page is temporarily unavailable."



In 1881 (per FS) Justine is in Mile End with her parents William (greengrocer, 36) and Margaret (40), and siblings Bertha, John, and William.

Worldwide IT outage is currently affecting many sites

1901 has a George Gobel, 1884, (Henry George one must assume) plus two Mitchell children who are step-children to Head

OP needs to look for naturalisation papers, in view of the man's declaration that he was British subject

As far as I can see from FS, he wasn't claiming to be a British subject in 1891 or earlier - only in 1901 and later.

Yesterday, on Ancestry, I saw a naturalisation record for a William Gobel, but can't remember the date or other details.

AG- Was it this Wilhelm?

Reference: HO 144/1259/236046
Description:
Nationality and Naturalisation: Goebel, Wilhelm, from Germany. Resident in Merton, Surrey. Certificate 23511 issued 22 May 1913.

Date: 1913
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

I don't think so, Jink.
I'm pretty sure the name was William Gobel.

I'll find it when Ancestry's working again.

East London Observer 20 July 1907

William Gobel, a letter sorter in the General Post Office, residing at 2, Avenue-Park-Road, Forrest Gate, was summoned, at the instance of the Poplar Guardians, to show why he should not contribute towards the support of his father, who was in receipt of parish relief.......Defendant's father was 62 years of age.........Defendant had to support a wife and four children....Defendant was ordered to contribute 4s a week towards father's maintenance.

Many thanks for all the replies, I'll check them against my Ancestry tree as soon as that site is up and running again.
He certainly did become a postman quite late in life, I have a photograph of him in his postman's uniform, looking very proud of himself.
The family listed by Argyll Gran is correct, my mother was Bertha Katharina's daughter.
I know both he and his second wife, Charlotte, died in 1927 within quite a short space of time, he in fact died on my mother's 21st birthday.
Although he has claimed to be British in one of the census returns, I haven't been able to find proof of this. If Argyll Gran can find the naturlisation record she referred to, I'd love to see it.
I usually receive emails telling me there have been replies to my post, but sadly I didn't receive any this time. Perhaps the system has changed and I didn't realise.

Possible naturalisation records??

Reference: HO 144/804/134374
Description: Nationality and Naturalisation: Gobel, John, from Germany. Resident in London. Certificate 15752 issued 14 February 1906.

Date: 1906
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Former reference in its original department: 134374

and

Reference: HO 334/41/15752
Description:
Naturalisation Certificate: John Gobel. From Germany. Resident in London. Certificate A15752 issued 14 February 1906.

Date: 1906
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Language: English
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description