Genealogy Chat

Relationships shown in censuses are to the head of the household .

Re 1851 census -
John was correctly listed as stepson ("son-in-law") of Thomas Moore.

Margaret's relationship to Thomas was more complicated and "Daughter-in-law" , or step-daughter, would have been the nearest and easiest way to describe her.

Thank you Argyllgran, I had all the information just didn't put it in the right order, a case of being too close to the trees at times.
Your explanation makes sense, I've always said we need to have an open mind when looking at information as we all say things differently.
The last confusing part was the 1851 and 1861 census where it says Margaret and John are inlaws. Obviously they're step daughter and step son, but even then Margaret isn't Elizabeths step daughter but Marguerite's daughter by John Scarborough.

Now I feel silly not working it out, but onto the next family member.
Thank you to everyone that has posted information and helped.

It seems clear.

Margaret (Marguerite in French) Le Ber / Bes married Abraham Le Cocq.

He died, and she married John Scarborough.
Their daughter Margaret's baptism details show that the child's mother was Margaret.
The stated mmn Le Cocq on the GRO birth record is a mistake, or maybe depends on what was asked.
If asked "What was your surname before marriage?" - she could have said Le Cocq, which would have been correct, even though not her maiden name.

Margaret Scarborough (formerly Le Cocq, born Le Ber/Bes) died, and John married Elizabeth Brown.



The 1841 marriage is definitely the correct one - though does show that John had had yet another earlier wife.

It says "John Scarbrough, widower, of the parish of Ashby, Lincolnshire, and Marguerite Le Ber , widow of Abraham Le Cocq, of L'isle d'Auregny, were married together . . "
28 July 1841.

Hi and thanks again to you all for your assistance and information.
I have found the connection in the Channel Islands, and got Margaret le bes Scarborough's birth record from the Gro, and it just makes more confusion as it gives the mothers maiden name as
Margaret Le Bes Scarborough formally Le Cocq.

Now to add to the confusion a
John Scarborough married a
Marguerite le Ber on 28th July 1841
Spouse notes says, (Widow of Abraham Le Cocq) (Aldernay)
St Saviour
Jersey.
Channel Islands.

Now in Notes there's a reference to Ashby Lincs, which is the area this family were in 1843 onwards.

Its fairly obvious that Elizabeth could have had Margaret before she married John Scarborough in 1845,
but the mothers maiden name of Margaret on the birth record and this marriage in the Channel Islands is confusing and making me wonder if I'm looking at 2 different people. ????

In 1841 John Scarborough, a Primitive Preacher born in England is shown in the same household as Margaret Le Cocq, a milliner in Alderney, Channel Islands.

Listed in that area are many with the surname Le Cocq and also there is a Margaret Le Bes.

The name Le Ber was nothing to do with Elizabeth Brown.

Margaret was the daughter of John Scarborough and a previous wife/partner.
He was a widower when he married Elizabeth.

Margaret's baptism record, posted by Greyghost, shows her mother's name as Margaret - not Elizabeth.


SCARBOROUGH, MARGARET LE BES 42
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in THE GLANFORD BRIGG UNION Volume 14 Page 287

Apologies if this has all been posted before. [EDIT - Yes it has, by Greyghost.]

All Le Ber surnames in 1841 are in the Channel Islands
The name remains in the Channel Islands in 1851

Not to say someone with that surname was in England between census so not recorded.

Perhaps Margaret's middle name of Le Ber was in honour of a friend of the family - maybe that witness at Elizabeth Browns marriage to john Scarborough?

Maybe even an Armed forces connection as there were troops in the Channel Islands.

Lincolnshire Marriages And Banns
Bottesford, Lincolnshire, England

First name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Brown
Sex Female
Age Full Age
Marriage year 1845
Marriage date 24 Mar 1845
Residence Ashby
Spouse's first name(s) John
Spouse's last name Scarbrough
Spouse's age Full Age
Spouse's residence Ashby
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Brown
Spouse's father's first name(s) John
Spouse's father's last name Scarbrough
Place Bottesford
County Lincolnshire
Country England
Archive Lincolnshire Archives
Page 35
Event type Marriages
Record set Lincolnshire Marriages And Banns
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain


From original; - Elizabeth said to be a spinster - supported by the OPR showing her Father's surname as Thomas Brown a Labourer. John Scarborough was a widower , s/o John Scarborough a Farmer
Witnesses - Amos Lovitt and Mary Ann Le Ber

Amos Lovitt is probably the one aged 25 in the 1841 census at Mill House, Ashby, Bottesford a Blacksmith

Hi Greyghost, thank you I have got that information for Margaret Le Ber Scarborough and her marriage to Edward Easton Jaques, and followed their children, but it still is a mystery where Margarets mother, Elizabeth came up with the french connection.

In the Gro records her maiden name for the birth of Margaret is Le Cocq, but for her son, John its Brown.
Both children have the surname of Scarborough.

I'm still waiting for Margarets birth certificate so hopefully that will throw some light on where the surname Le Cocq came from, but still confusing that in various other records Margaret has the Le, Leber, and Le Bes names added to her name.
I accept they could be transcriptions errors.

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1869 (>99%)
Jaques Edward Easton Glanford Brigg 7a 1329
Scarborough Margaret Le Ber Glanford Brigg 7a 1329

----------
Lincolnshire Marriages And Banns
Bottesford, Lincolnshire, England

First name(s) Margaret Le Ber
Last name Scarborough
Sex Female
Birth year 1843
Age 26
Marriage year 1869
Marriage date 23 Dec 1869
Residence Ashby
Spouse's first name(s) Edward Easton
Spouse's last name Jaques
Spouse's age 35
Spouse's residence Frodingham
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Scarborough
Spouse's father's first name(s) Henry
Spouse's father's last name Jaques
Place Bottesford
County Lincolnshire
Country England
Archive Lincolnshire Archives
Page 128
Event type Marriages
Record set Lincolnshire Marriages And Banns
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain
© Findmypast

From original -
Edward a Coal Agent of Frodingham, s/o Henry Jaques a Labourer
Margaret of Ashby d/o John Scarborough a Tailor

Witnesses - Thomas Moore and Damaris Jaques

Hi Thank you all for your input and information. I've been working my way through the information for,
Elizabeth, (Scarborough, Brown, Le Cocq) I don't know what her maiden name is. ???

Looking at her marriage to John Scarborough, in 1845, it would seem that her daughter,
Margaret (le ber, Le Bes, Leber,) Scarborough was born 2 years earlier in 1843, with her mother Elizabeth's maiden name in the Gro record as, Le Cocq.

This seems to me as a French surname, I point this out as
Margaret Le Scarborough, went on to marry a Edward Easton Jaques in 1869

What I can't find out is where does the Le, leber, Le Bes, and Le Cocq names fit in this.

Obvious answer is that Elizabeth born 1813 had a third marriage or had a child with someone with the surname of ????? le, Leber, Le Bes, Le Cocq, then as
Elizabeth Brown, married, 1845 to
John Scarborough, born 1806,
He appears to have died the same year, 1845
Elizabeth had his son in 1846,

Then as,
Elizabeth Scarborough married in 1847, to
Thomas Moore..

So where does the French connection come into Elizabeth's life.
And please don't say "Popeye" Doyle.

One last thing to say is that I have sent off to the Gro for Margaret Le Bes Scarborough, birth certificate, hoping it will show her fathers name.

Step-children were frequently (always?) termed in-laws in 1851 census.

It's not peculiar to this particular family.

"Relationships (from 1851)
In practice, the head of the household was often the oldest male, but not necessarily. Everyone else, whether wife, son, servant or anyone else, should have been described in relation to this person, but this was not always followed accurately. In three-generation families young children may be shown as ‘son’ or ‘daur’ (daughter) when they are really the grandchildren of the head. ‘Son (or daughter)-in-law’ can mean a stepchild, as well as the husband or wife of the head’s own children. A boarder is someone who resides within the household but is not a relative or servant, while a lodger only rents a room or rooms, but these terms are often used interchangeably."
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/census-records/

Name: Age at Death (in years):

SCARBOROUGH, MARGARET LE BES 42
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in THE GLANFORD BRIGG UNION Volume 14 Page 287

Burial
First name(s) Margaret Laker
County Lincolnshire
Last name Scarborough
Country England
Sex Female
Archive Lincolnshire Archives
Birth year 1802
Page 42
Age 41
Record set Lincolnshire Burials
Burial year 1843
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Burial date 08 Oct 1843
Subcategory Parish Burials
Place Bottesford
Collections from England, Great Britain
© Findmypast

From original - Margaret Le Ber Scarborough of Ashby

----------------------------------------

SCARBOROUGH, JOHN 43
GRO Reference: 1845 D Quarter in THE GLANFORD BRIGG UNION Volume 14 Page 217

Burial -
First name(s) John
County Lincolnshire
Last name Scarborough
Country England
Sex Male
Archive Lincolnshire Archives
Birth year 1802
Page 47
Age 43
Record set Lincolnshire Burials
Burial year 1845
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Burial date 22 Nov 1845
Subcategory Parish Burials
Place Bottesford
Collections from England, Great Britain
© Findmypast

From original - of Ashby

And for Margaret - GRO shows first names as Margaret Le Bes mmn Le Cocq

First name(s) Margaret Leber
County Lincolnshire
Last name Scarborough
Country England
Sex Female
Archive Lincolnshire Archives
Baptism year 1843
Page 14
Baptism date 08 Oct 1843
Record set Lincolnshire Baptisms
Father's first name(s) John
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Mother's first name(s) Margaret Leber
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Place Bottesford
Collections from England, Great Britain
© Findmypast

Original - Mother's name Margaret Le ? Bas ? Bar

Of Ashby Father john a Tailor

Lincolnshire Baptisms
Bottesford, Lincolnshire, England

First name(s) John
County Lincolnshire
Last name Scarborough
Country England
Sex Male
Archive Lincolnshire Archives
Baptism year 1846
Page 24
Baptism date 18 Jan 1846
Record set Lincolnshire Baptisms
Father's first name(s) John
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Place Bottesford

From original - of Ashby. Father - John a Draper

-------------
Joseph Moore and at the same time brother Thomas

Joseph
County Lincolnshire
Last name Moore
Country England
Sex Male
Archive Lincolnshire Archives
Baptism year 1849
Page 36
Baptism date 09 Sep 1849
Record set Lincolnshire Baptisms
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Place Bottesford
Collections from England, Great Britain
© Findmypast

from original - Of Ashby. Father - Thomas a Grocer

There are many entries on census for step children which refer to them as "in law" instead.

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Ashby, Glanford Brigg, Lincolnshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Moore Head Married Male 44 1807 Shopkeeper Lincolnshire, England
Elizabeth Moore Wife Married Female 38 1813 - Lincolnshire, England
Margaret Scarbrough Daughter-in-law Unmarried Female 7 1844 - Ashby, Lincolnshire, England
John Scarbrough Son-in-law - Male 5 1846 - Ashby, Lincolnshire, England
Thomas Moore Son - Male 3 1848 - Ashby, Lincolnshire, England
Joseph Moore Son - Male 1 1850 - Ashby, Lincolnshire, England
Sergante Brown Brother-in-law Unmarried Male 40 1811 Carpenter Santon, Lincolnshire, England
Ellen Hudson Servant Unmarried Female 19 1832 House serv Burringham, Lincolnshire, England


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1845 (>99%)
BROWN Elizabeth Glanfd. Brigg
SCARBROUGH John Glanfd. Bring


Birth
SCARBOROUGH, JOHN BROWN
GRO Reference: 1845 D Quarter in THE GLANFORD BRIGG UNION Volume 14 Page 351


???
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
SCARBOROUGH, MARGARET LE BES LE COCQ
GRO Reference: 1843 D Quarter in THE GLANFORD BRIGG UNION Volume 14 Page 357

You are correct.... Elizabeth was previously married and brought children into a later marriage....What we would term step children of Thomas.

Is this the marriage...
Marriages Sep 1847

MOORE Thomas Glanford Bg 14 501
SCARBOROUGH Elizabeth Glanfd Brigg 14 501

Can some help with a query about a Daughter in Law and Son in Law.

Look up the 1851 census for a
Thomas Moore born 1808.
Wife Elizabeth born 1813.
The census says they have a,
Margaret Scarbrough, Daughter in Law, born 1844 age 7,
and,
John Scarbrough Son in Law born 1846 age 5.

Obviously to be daughter and son in laws they both have to have married someone within the family, but both are underage to have married.

The other children on this record are Thomas More, son born 1848 age 3
Joseph Moore, son born 1850, age 1 (My great grandfather)

The ages these two sons were born give me to believe that Thomas and Elizabeth married around 1847.

A clue to this may be the other person living at this address in 1851,
Sergante Brown, Brother in Law, which I think would be Elizabeth's brother and so her maiden name is Brown, which fits with a connection in my family tree,


But I can't get my head round how Margaret and John age 7 and 5 are in laws.

One theory is they are Elizabeth's children from a previous marriage, and when asked what relationship they were, instead of saying step daughter and step son, they said In Laws.
Or have I just lost the plot.