Genealogy Chat

No, thank goodness I don't! Try the General Chat board!

There's little about poor relief on SP at present.
SP has a new section called "Poor relief and migration records", but it's still under construction.

"Poor relief and migration records
.. . . . . . .
This category will eventually contain images of the poor relief records that have been deposited with the National Records of Scotland. People received poor relief if they were unable to support themselves."
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/what-records-are-in-the-site

Thank you ArgyllGran, that is really interesting. It'll be a few days before I get to re-investigate my lot, but I will come back to the link you posted - I use ScotlandsPeople too, maybe there will be something on there.

That's twice I've thanked you for helping in a couple of minutes, you're becoming my personal mentor. I don't suppose you know anything about Ingrowing Toenails as well by any chance? Lol

There is also the fact that many employers /wanted/expected/needed to know that their servants had been baptised.

As children could start work at any age after about 8, that may also be the reason for batch baptisms .......... one need baptising to get a position so "might as well do all the younger ones as well".

There is also the fact that children had to be baptised in the Church of England until about 1880 ish. I have a family in Derbyshire who were all staunch Methodists but were baptised CofE, and then all baptised again as Methodists when it became legal.

I have a different problem in Wales, where Welsh Baptists aren't baptised until they are adults. There may be similar problems in Scotland.

Info about poor relief in Scotland, and where records might be (county archives):

https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/research-guides/research-guides-a-z/poor-relief-records

Until the mid 19th century, poor relief was administered by local parish churches, and some charities, so it may well have been the case that baptism was required.

Ah. That's a very interesting idea, Duncan!

That could apply to my Cornwall family indeed. I haven't ever looked for evidence of poor relief. But it would fit with my impression of the family, i.e. that the father wasn't always where he was reported to be, e.g. with them in the 1851 census. Three of the baptised batch were born in the early 1850s. In 1861 they were in Plymouth and the mother still described herself as wife of a man with the father's occupation, which was connected with mining, but the father has never yet been found anywhere that year, at least by me. The 1850s were a depressed time in Cornwall, the collapse of the mining industry being the big reason, and by 1861 the family had left, first to Devon and then to London.

I have a family on my other side who were removed from Poole, Dorset, back to their home town in Wiltshire in 1791, under the poor law that required people to receive relief in their home parish, on which the legal responsibility for providing relief rested.

Baptism would prove one's home parish.

In Thomas' case, there may well have been older children who were employed and therefore not covered by any poor relief granted (explaining the gap between the marriage and the birth of the eldest child baptised in the batch, that I had wondered about).

This could be an indication that the family were in dire financial straits. I don't remember the exact detail of this, but it's something along the lines of all children had to be baptised in order to qualify for financial assistance (from the church?) or possibly to allow entry to a workhouse.
Having said that, the instance I found in my tree was also 6 children of different ages all being baptised together, and I can't find any record of poor relief - although it was in Scotland where things may have been different.
Might be worth a look though just in case.

Heh, I don`t know! A batch discount?

I have heard that in some cases it was a matter of not having easy access to a member of the clergy to perform the ceremony.

In my family's case, I suspect it was because
- child 1 was born to the unmarried mother and an unknown father (possibly the father of children 1 and 2, but I can't find either parent in the 1841 despite years of looking)
- children 2 and 3 were born to the named mother and father, who were not married although they apparently presented themselves as such lifelong... until he married someone else 30 years after the birth of child 1 (while the mother of all the children was still living) to a woman with whom he already had 3 children of whom 1 survived to young adulthood, after which he promptly got run down by a bus and died
- all the rest of the children (5, I think, but I may be missing one - several died in childhood) were not the children of that named father, although he was named on birth and baptism records and marriage certificates.

.

Back to Fanny and Isaac -- is there any evidence of older children, I wonder?

If they were married in 1787, their eldest child being 10 in 1806 (born c1796) would be a little odd.

Was there a charge/ fee for a baptisms in 19c?

Just to echo namesless one

Batch baptisms were not at all uncommon, and yes for Frances/Fanny (there probably never lived a Frances who wasn't called Fanny). I have both in my tree.

In my strangest family, children were baptised seemingly randomly, singly or in batches. Four of the youngest in a batch while they were still fairly young (aged about 3 to 10). The eldest one 3 years later, in a different place, at the age of 16, and the 2nd eldest 12 years later as an adult, apparently in contemplation of death as he died a few weeks later of tuberculosis. That leaves a couple who don't seem to have been baptised at all, including one allegedly born in Jersey.

I don't think I'll ever figure out what was in the parents' minds ... or whether the parents (the father, that is) was the same in all cases ... ;-)

Not surprising Shirley, the post has been deleted.

:-(

Not seeing why the comment by nameless

Isn’t that what I said :-S

A tree on ancestry has Frances noad dying in 1792 !

This came up so posting it !

Name: Frances Noad
Event Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 24 May 1774
Baptism Place: Road, Somerset, England
Father: Jonathan Noad
Mother: Sally Noad

Wonder how old she was at baptism because she wouid have been very young to marry in 1787

But then girls couid marry at 12 and boys at 14 with parental consent

A follow up
Name Jonathan Noad
Gender Male
Age 21
Birth Year abt 1741
Marriage or Bann Date 28 Apr 1762
Marriage Place Somerset, England
Spouse
Sally Whittaker

Again just because it came up !

Not unusual to have several children baptised at the same time and yes, Frances could definitely be known as Fanny.

I have 6 members of the same family baptised on 27/7/1806 .Baptised at St Lawrence's church Rode Somerset. The notes show that they were all aged between 1 and 11 yrs old when baptised. Their parents were Isaac and Fanny Wheeler.The names of the children were Mary,John,Sarah,Hannah,Stephen,and Ann.
There is a record of an Isaac Wheeler marrying a Frances Noad on 4/12/1787 in Rode Somerset.The bride and groom are shown as both of this parish. He is shown as being a widower and she is shown as being a spinster.The witnesses were a James Wheeler and Jerm Cruse (clerk).
My question is was this unusual at that time.Could Frances have been known as Fanny ?