Genealogy Chat

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Just for interest -

Looks like FMP just didn't correctly list all the names on that record

freebmd has all 4 people recorded -

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1870 (>99%)
Andrews Sarah Camberwell 1d 715
MOWBRAY William Craster Camberwell 1d 715
TIDY Henry Camberwell 1d 715
Waters Sarah Camberwell 1d 715

with Tidy/Andrews births after that date

Sarah's Father was Thomas Andrews , deceased Carpenter

Sarah Waters was a widow when she married William, Father's name James Pavey

Both marriage records are showing on Ancestry in the London, England CoE Marriages and Banns

Good news, Keith!
Thanks for letting us know.

In my first post I mentioned this marriage, found on FMP:

First name(s) Henry
Last name Tidy
Marriage quarter 1
Marriage year 1870
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ Henry Tidy married one of these peopleSarah Waters <<<
District Camberwell
District number -
County London
Country England
Volume 1D
Volume as transcribed 1D
Page number 716
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce
Collections from Great Britain, England

It turns out that the transcription is wrong, here's what GRO said:

Each page in a register contains several marriage entries. The persons requested are on this page at the reference you quoted, however they are not married to each other.

The correct marriage is to Sarah Andrews:

Name: Henry Tidy
Gender: Male
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 27 Mar 1870
Marriage Place: St Mary Magdalene, Peckham, Southwark, England
Father:
Richard Tidy
Spouse:
Sarah Andrews <<<
Register Type: Parish Register

And it looks as if the early death of Sarah Tidy is still correct.

Keith

Thank you for finding those records, Shirley. I'm glad you came to the same conclusion I had about the "right" Henry Tidy, there were quite a few!

Georgina and Walter went on to have 6 children.

ArgyllGran was spot on, thank you! The GRO record is quite difficult to read, the handwriting is fine but the copy is atrocious. Knowing that Pinder was a possibility, it was easy to read it as Pinder, but without prior knowledge I could easily have come up with Ryder too.

Keith

She also married before 1901
Name: Georgina Sarah Tidy
Registration Year: 1897
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration District: Woolwich
Parishes for this Registration District: View Ecclesiastical Parishes associated with this Registration District
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 1335
Records on Page:
Georgina Sarah Tidy
Walter Williams


Mother's Maiden Surname:
WILLIAMS, WINIFRED GEORGINA TIDY
GRO Reference: 1897 D Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 1283

Unfortunately both he and Sarah died before the 1901 and 1911 census to see how long married and children born

Name: Henry Tidy
Age: 51
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Death Registration Place: Woolwich, London, United Kingdom
Death Date: Mar 1896
Inferred Death Place: London, United Kingdom
Volume: 1d
Page: 767

Name: Sarah Ann Tidy
Age: 54
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Death Registration Place: Woolwich, London, United Kingdom
Death Date: Mar 1899
Inferred Death Place: London, United Kingdom
Volume: 1d
Page: 820

Georgina is consistently named as daughter when they are on records together

That's a good point, ArgyllGran, thank you. I'll report back when I receive the birth certificate.

Keith

Mmmm... I had a different interpretation of "proving something". If I were to start out with a particular idea of a relationship - in an extreme case that I'm descended from royalty for example - and then try to prove it, then I think I would be going about things the wrong way.

I take it as a given that I have to demonstrate relationships with documentary evidence wherever possible, to say clearly where this has not been possible, and give arguments why I think any interpretation I may make is the best one, given the evidence I have. That's not what I would call proving something, but I can see that others might call it that.

Keith

Lucky you then if you have never ever gone down a wrong route before realising it is wrong.

Surely one of the main aspects of FH research is proving that one has accurate info in one’s tree:-S :-S :-S :-S

It's possible that Ryder is a mistranscription of Pinder, if the handwriting is bad on the birth cert..

I agree that getting the birth (and Henry's earlier marriage) certificates would be useful. Thankfully the GRO pdfs arrive quite quickly, but the paper certificates take >3weeks!

Sarah Pinder's parents appear to have been William Pinder 1810 and Mary Anne Morriss 1810.

As you say Henry, Sarah Ann, and Georgina are together in 1881 and 1891, Georgina is listed as their daughter in both cases. She was born in Eltham, Kent according to the census records.

Henry & Sarah are also listed as her parents in her baptism record.

I prefer not to try and prove something, I would rather find out what the data has to tell me.

I'm trying to understand how Georgina Tidy, MMN Ryder, came to be the daughter of Henry Tidy and Sarah Ann Pinder.

Who was Sarah Pinder’s father?

You haven’t posted any census info showing family connections

The three of them are together in 1881 and 1891………….
Georgina Sarah married in 1897

What are you trying to prove?

Getting the 1876 birth cert would seem to be the sensible option

TIDY, GEORGINA SARAH RYDER
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in LEWISHAM UNION Volume 01D Page 989

She was baptised 8 April 1883:

Name: Georgina Sarah Tidy
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 8 Apr 1883
Baptism Place: Holy Trinity, Woolwich, Greenwich, England
Father:
Henry Tidy
Mother:
Sarah Ann Tidy
Register Type: Parish Register

Henry Tidy was a widower when he married Sarah Ann Pinder:

Name: Henry Tidy <<< widower
Gender: Male
Marriage Age: 29
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1845
Marriage Date: 20 Dec 1874
Marriage Place: St John, Deptford, Lewisham, England
Father: Richard Tidy
Spouse: Sarah Pender
Register Type: Parish Register

witnesses: Thomas Tidy, Elizabeth Ann Tidy <<< possibly uncle and aunt??

So I looked for an earlier marriage and found this as the most likely:

First name(s) Henry
Last name Tidy
Marriage quarter 1
Marriage year 1870
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ Henry Tidy married one of these peopleSarah Waters <<< error, see later post
District Camberwell
District number -
County London
Country England
Volume 1D
Volume as transcribed 1D
Page number 716
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce
Collections from Great Britain, England

And this looks like Sarah’s premature death:

TIDY, SARAH 26
GRO Reference: 1870 D Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 593

Henry was also a widower in C1871.

This is the Henry James Tidy I’m interested in:

TIDY, HENRY JAMES LEVITT
GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in GREENWICH UNION Volume 05 Page 277

I need to get the marriage certificates to increase my confidence in these two marriages.

However, Georgina presents a problem.

Initially I suspected that she might be the child of his first marriage, but with MMN=Ryder, that’s clearly not the case - if I’ve got the right first marriage. In any case I have failed to find an appropriate Ryder-Tidy marriage, and Georgina's birth registration is after Henry’s second marriage.

It may also be relevant that she was baptised at age 7.

So far I have found no other issue of Henry’s second marriage.

I’m wondering whether this might be an informal adoption? I’d appreciate other plausible explanations and / or refutation of any of the above.

Keith