Genealogy Chat

Ah, here's the baptism mentioned in the Ancestry tree - don't know why I couldn't see it before:


Elizabeth Hope
in the Wales, Select Births and Baptisms, 1541-1907
Name: Elizabeth Hope
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 20 Jul 1837
Baptism Place: Llanbadarn Fynydd,Radnor,Wales
Father: James Hope
Mother: Elizabeth
FHL Film Number: 104469



Elizabeth Hope
in the 1841 Wales Census
Name: Elizabeth Hope
Age: 3
Estimated birth year: abt 1838
Gender: Female
Where born: Radnorshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Llanbadarn Fynydd
Hundred: Knighton
County/Island: Radnorshire
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Knighton
Sub-registration district: Llanbister
Neighbors:
Piece: 1455
Book: 10
Folio: 8
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
James Hope 40
Elizabeth Hope 30
Margaret Hope 10
Edward Hope 6
Elizabeth Hope 3


Elizabeth Hope
in the 1851 Wales Census
Name: Elizabeth Hope
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1837
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: James Hope
Mother's name: Elizabeth Hope
Gender: Female
Where born: Llanbadarn Fynydd, Radnorshire, Wales
Civil Parish or Township: Llanbadarn Fynydd
County/Island: Radnorshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Knighton
Sub-registration district: Knighton
ED, institution, or vessel: 11a
Piece: 2493
Folio: 394
Page Number: 16
Household schedule number: 35
Household Members:
Name Age
James Hope 56
Elizabeth Hope 50
Elizabeth Hope 14


Elizabeth Hope
in the 1861 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Hope
Age: 24
Estimated birth year: 1837
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Radnorshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Market Bosworth
Town: Market Bosworth
County/Island: Leicestershire <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Condition as to marriage:
View image
Registration district: Market Bosworth
Sub-registration district: Market Bosworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 4
Piece: 2263
Folio: 4
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Thos H Evans 29
Harriet F Evans 24
Margaretta E Evans 2
Horatio J Evans 1
Catherine Evans 7/12
Elizabeth Hope 24
Ann Gold 16


Ancestry (the website, not a tree - though not necessarily any more accurate), suggests this is the marriage of that Elizabeth Hope:

Elizabeth Hope
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Elizabeth Hope
Registration Year: 1860
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: Knighton
Inferred County: Radnorshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 331
Records on Page:
Name
Anne Davies
Elizabeth Hope
William Ingram
Edward Williams
John Williams


If that's so, she gets about three years older every ten years.

Elizabeth Williams
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Williams
Age: 38
Estimated birth year: 1833
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Llanbadarn Radnorshire Wales <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Civil Parish: Chirbury
Ecclesiastical parish: Chirbury St Michael
County/Island: Shropshire
Country: England
Registration district: Forden
Sub-registration district: Chirbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 32
Piece: 5621
Folio: 22
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
John Williams 34
Elizabeth Williams 38
John Williams 12
Edward Williams 8
Elizabeth Williams 4
Mary Jane Williams 1


Elizth. Williams
in the 1881 Wales Census
Name: Elizth. Williams
Age: 51
Estimated birth year: abt 1830
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: John Williams
Gender: Female
Where born: Radnorshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Newtown
County/Island: Montgomeryshire
Country: Wales
Street address: The Lot
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Registration district: Newtown
Sub registration district: Newtown
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors:
Piece: 5486
Folio: 53
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
John Williams 42
Elizth. Williams 51
John Williams 21
Edward Williams 17
Elizabeth Williams 15
Mary Jane Williams 11
Anne Williams 8
Daniel Williams 6
Sarah Ann Williams 3


Elizth Williams
in the 1891 Wales Census
Name: Elizth Williams
[Elizabeth Williams]
Age: 63
Estimated birth year: abt 1828
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: John Williams
Gender: Female
Where born: Llanbadarn, Radnorshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Newtown
Ecclesiastical parish: Newtown
Town: Newtown
County/Island: Montgomeryshire
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Newtown
Sub registration district: Newtown
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors:
Piece: 4593
Folio: 45
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
John Williams 57
Elizth Williams 63
Anne Goug 19 - daughter
David Goug 16
Sarah A Goug 13
Geo R Goug 6/1


John's a widower by 1901, but 1911 says he's been married 3 years:

John Williams
in the 1911 Wales Census
Name: John Williams
Age in 1911: 73
Estimated birth year: abt 1838
Relation to Head: Patient
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Llanbadarn, Radnorshire, Wales
Civil Parish: Newtown
County/Island: Montgomeryshire
Country: Wales
Street address: Montgomeryshire Inferrer Newton
Marital status: Married
Years Married: 37
Estimated Marriage Year: 1874
Occupation: Labourer (General)
Registration district: Newtown
Registration District Number: 616
Sub-registration district: Newtown
ED, institution, or vessel: 06
Household schedule number: 3
Piece: 33790


However, it looks very much as if this is a different Elizabeth - ie - not the one who married Henry Hoffman.
I can't see any other Elizabeth Hope born in Llanbadarn Fynydd, which is in Knighton RG.

So, all in all, my feeling is that Elizabeth Hope / Hob / Haust was born in Germany as stated on the censuses.
I don't see any sign of her before the marriage to Henry Hoffman.
Nor of Henry.

Can't prove it, though!

You really need that 1859 marriage cert.

According to Wikipedia,

"Föhr is one of the North Frisian Islands on the German coast of the North Sea. It is part of the Nordfriesland district in the federal state of Schleswig-Holstein."
"From the middle-ages until 1864, Föhr belonged to the Danish realm and to the Duchy of Schleswig, but was then transferred to Prussia as a result of the Second Schleswig War."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%B6hr


So when Henry (and Elizabeth, if relevant) were born, it would be part of Denmark.

I don't see a likely birth for either of them, in Fohr / Nordfriesland / Schleswig-Holstein,on Ancestry or FS.


FS has Danish censuses 1835, 1840, 1845, 1855, 1860 - but again, I don't see any likely results:

https://tinyurl.com/qrkh7wd

Hi ArgyllGran
My head is now spinning with all that information.
No I don't have the marriage certificate.
that might be the next step.
Or I need to go and find some German records.
Henry would be Heinrich and John would be Johann .
They don't make it easy do the easy do they.
May I come back when I have looked at all you have found.
Thanks so much for everything.
Ann

Just a thought -
is it at all possible that she might be this person below, born St Germans, Cornwall, and all the census takers have assumed she said Germany for hre birthplace ??
A bit far-fetched, I realise.

EDIT:
And in fact, disregard this idea - it wouldn't be wrong on all those censuses, surely?:

Elizabeth Hobb
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Elizabeth Hobb
Registration Year: 1841
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration district: St Germans
Inferred County: Cornwall
Volume: 9
Page: 11


Elizabeth Hobb
in the 1841 England Census
Name: Elizabeth Hobb
Age: 1 Mo
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Gender: Female
Where born: Cornwall, England
Civil Parish: Landrake With St Erney
Hundred: East (South Division)
County/Island: Cornwall
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
View image
Registration district: St Germans
Sub-registration district: Saltash
Neighbors:
Piece: 135
Book: 7
Folio: 4
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
John Hobb 25
Mary Hobb 25
Elizabeth Hobb 1 Mo


If the 1859 marriage is the correct one, do you have a copy of it? What was her father's name?

There is no birth of an Elizabeth Hope in Leicestershire , Sept 1837 - Dec 1850.

There are these similar names:

Births Sep 1837 (>99%)
Heap Elizabeth Barket Bosworth 15 108

Births Dec 1839 (>99%)
Hebb Elizabeth Leicester 15 116

Births Mar 1840 (>99%)
Hebb Elizabeth Bingham 15 484

Births Mar 1844 (>99%)
Heap Elizabeth Loughboro 15 147

Births Mar 1849 (>99%)
HEAP Elizabeth Leicester 15 124

The tree on Ancestry says Elizabeth was baptised 20 Jul 1837 at Llanbadarn Fynydd, Radnor, Wales - though I don't see a record of that.

However, I don't think that's true. I think the tree owner is fixated on an Elizabeth Thomas.

All the censuses say Henry's wife was born c1841

In which case this could be her baptism, if indeed she was born in the UK:

Elizabeth Hope
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Birth Index, 1837-1915
Name: Elizabeth Hope
Registration Year: 1841
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Rhayader
Inferred County: Radnorshire
Volume: 26
Page: 249

However, she may possibly actually have been German by birth, as suggested in the censuses.
Perhaps her name was really Haust, as in Catherine's birth record ??


ADDED:

Or Hob, as in marriage, and in this daughter's birth record:

HOFFMAN, ALICE ELIZABETH mms HOB
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 11B Page 134

For our reference - trying to see what records there are -


A tree on Ancestry says Elizabeth's name was Elizabeth Hope Thomas.

However, it also claims this is their marriage:

Marriages Sep 1859 (>99%)
Hob Elizabeth Newport M 11a 230
Hoffman Henry Newport M 11a 230


In 1911 the birthplace for both of them is stated as "Germany (Resident)", and nationality "German":

Henry Hoffman
in the 1911 Wales Census
Name: Henry Hoffman
Age in 1911: 74
Estimated birth year: abt 1837
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Germany
Civil Parish: Brynmawr
County/Island: Breconshire
Country: Wales
Street address: 16 Rhyd Cydach Brynmawr
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Basket Maker
Registration district: Crickhowell
Registration District Number: 611
Sub-registration district: Llanelly
ED, institution, or vessel: 07
Household schedule number: 573
Piece: 33599
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Hoffman 74
Elizabeth Hoffman 72
William Raymond 69


Henry Hoffman
in the 1901 Wales Census
Name: Henry Hoffman
Age in 1901: 65
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Spouse: Elizabeth Hoffman
Gender: Male
Where born: Germany
Civil Parish: Brynmawr
Town: Brynmawr
Ecclesiastical parish: Brynmawr St Mary
County/Island: Breconshire
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Crickhowell
Sub-registration district: Llanelly
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 195
Piece: 5174
Folio: 45
Page Number: 36
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Hoffman 65 - Germany
Elizabeth Hoffman 64 - Germany
Frederick Hoffman 21
Lily Hoffman 20 - daughter-in-law
Annie E Hoffman 6 Months

Henry Hoffman
in the 1891 Wales Census
Name: Henry Hoffman
Age: 52
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Elizabeth Hoffman
Gender: Male
Where born: Germany
Civil Parish: Llanelly
Ecclesiastical parish: Brynmawr St Mary
Town: Aberbaiden
County/Island: Breconshire
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Crickhowell
Sub registration district: Llanelly
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors:
Piece: 4576
Folio: 76
Page Number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Hoffman 52
Elizabeth Hoffman 50 - Germany
Sarah J Hoffman 13
Frederick Hoffman 11
William H Hoffman 25


Frederick's birth, for confirmation of mms Hope:

HOFFMAN, FREDERICK mms HOPE
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 11B Page 125

This is why the tre says Elizabeth's name was Thomas -

HOFFMAN, CATHARINE mms HOPE
GRO Reference: 1864 D Quarter in BRISTOL Volume 06A Page 25

Katharine Hoffman
in the Bristol, England, Select Church of England Parish Registers, 1720-1933
Name: Katharine Hoffman
Baptism Date: 30 Oct 1864
Baptism Place: Bristol, St Clement, Gloucestershire, England
Father: Henry Hoffman
Mother: Elizabeth Hoffman


The tree owner is confusing that child with this one - unless she was baptised twice ??:

Catharine Wilhilmine Louise Rosalie Hoffmann
in the Germany, Select Births and Baptisms, 1558-1898
Name: Catharine Wilhilmine Louise Rosalie Hoffmann
Gender: Female
Baptism Age: 0
Birth Date: 8 Jun 1865
Baptism Date: 30 Jun 1865
Baptism Place: Siegen, Westfalen, Preußen, Germany
Residence Place: Siegen, Westfalen, Preußen, Germany
Father: Heinrich Hoffmann
Mother: Elisabeth Thomas <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
FHL Film Number: 997370



Not posting 1881, 1871 censuses (which both say Germany) - they were living in Wales at the times of each census - and jumping back to 1861:

Henry Hollman
in the 1861 Wales Census
Name: Henry Hollman
[Henry Hoffman]
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1838
Relation: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Germany
Civil Parish or Township: Llanelly
Ecclesiastical parish: Llanelly
Town: Brynmawr
County/Island: Breconshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Crickhowell
Sub-registration district: Llanelly
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 29
Neighbors:
Piece: 4220
Folio: 4
Page Number: 7
Household Members:
Name Age
John Hoffman 28 - Germany
Alice Hoffman 25 - Germany
Margaret Hoffman 2
Henry Hollman 23 - brother, Germany
Elizabeth Hollman 21 - brother's wife, Germany
John Hollman 6/1


Birth of the son John ???? Mms Haust ??

HOFFMAN, JOHN mms HAUST
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in CRICKHOWELL Volume 11B Page 136


Where did you find Henry's middle name as Lewis? He's just Henry on marriage and death records and all censuses.
The Ancestry tree gives him the middle name, but without any proof.


Henry Hoffman
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Henry Hoffman
Death Age: 99
Birth Date: abt 1835
Registration Date: Jan 1934
[Feb 1934]
[Mar 1934]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Crickhowell
Inferred County: Brecknockshire
Volume: 11b
Page: 145


Also, how do you know Elizabeth was born in Leicester, when all the censuses say Germany?

ArgyllGran
Thank you, That is really helpful of you.
He was
Henry Lewis Hoffman b:1839 in Fohr Germany
Elizabeth Hope :1837 Leicester
Anything you can find will be appreciated.
1911 Census living in Brynmawr Wales.
Ann

" British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914

This legislation came into force on 1 January 1915 as 4&5 Geo. c.17.[3] British subject status was acquired as follows:

- birth within His Majesty's dominions
- naturalisation in the United Kingdom or a part of His Majesty's dominions which had adopted Imperial naturalisation criteria
- descent through the legitimate male line (child born outside His Majesty's dominions to a British subject father). This was limited to one generation although further legislation in 1922 allowed subsequent generations born overseas to be registered as British subjects within one year of birth.
- foreign women who married British subject men
- former British subjects who had lost British subject status on marriage or through a parent's loss of status could resume it in specific circumstances (e.g. if a woman became widowed, or children immediately upon turning 21).

British subject status was normally lost by:

- naturalisation in a foreign state, such as the United States of America or France

******
- in the case of a woman, upon marriage to a foreign man. Prior to 1933, British subject status was lost even if the woman did not acquire her husband's nationality.

- a child of a father who lost British subject status, provided the child also had the father's new nationality.
- renunciation. "

https://tinyurl.com/uukjcp6



According to the link below, the 1914 BNSA Act was "a re-enactment of an 1870 law."
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3070746?seq=1




ADDED:
It wasn't the case in 1844, but was in 1870:

"The Common law view prior to the 1844 Act had been that marriage had no effect on the parties' nationality status. However, the 1844 Act provided that a foreign woman who married a British subject acquired British subject status automatically on marriage. Marriage by a British subject woman to an alien did not, at this time, affect her status. There was no provision for the naturalisation of children."


" The 1870 Act . . . . . ..A British subject woman marrying a foreign man now lost her British subject status on marriage."

https://tinyurl.com/vvct5u4


It doesn't say that the woman had to take her husband's nationality, but just that she would lose British subject status. So I suppose such a woman would take her husband's nationality, as otherwise she would be stateless.

However, all that still doesn't answer your question re 1859!
My guess would be that she didn't have to at that time, but may have chosen to.

If you like to tell us the names of the couple, maybe we can find something.

I have changed the heading of my question.

They Lived in Gloucester after married.
Sorry for misleading on some later census she put Natualtity
as German although she was born in Lancaster.
My question was it normal to change Natualtity

Your post is headed ‘name change’ , so do you have a query in connection with that?

Where did they live after the marriage?

Hi
Wonder if anyone can answer this.
If a English woman married a Germany man in 1859
was she obliged to take his Natualtity ?
I'm sure I have seen it somewhere or read it, but can't remember where or when.
Thank's Ann