Genealogy Chat

STEPHENS, CLIFFORD ERNEST mms PHIPPS
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 443


Clifford E Stephens
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Clifford E Stephens
Gender: Male
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 9 Jul 1906
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 23,
Residence Place: Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales
Occupation: Motor Driver
Schedule Number: 163
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: XGTP
Registration district: 588/3
Inferred Spouse: Gertrude V Stephens
Household Members:
Name
Clifford E Stephens
Gertrude V Stephens

Have been trying to find the family on the 1939 Register, with little result, but I have found the following interesting records on GRO Index ..............

The Pension Record has the following for the children .............

Bertrice Stephens Child - 8 March 1902
Sudney Stephens Child - 27 May 1903
Olive Stephens Child - 1 May 1925 <<<<<<<<<<< should be 1905
Clifford Stephens Child - 9 July 1906
Archie Stephens Child - 16 Feb 1909


I could NOT find a Bertrice/Beatrice on Freebmd or GRO, but there is the following

STEPHENS, BERTIE CHARLES mmn PHIPPS
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in OF CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 425

STEPHENS, SIDNEY FREDERICK mmn PHIPPS
GRO Reference: 1903 J Quarter in OF CARDIFF Volume 11A Page 462


I think a mistake was made, and "Bertrice" should have been Bertie!!


ie, NO child born called Beatrice.

Oh, I see - I thought you were querying the marriage.
Sorry!

I was thinking that Peter would like to see thew war record for himself to see where Charles served, and what happened to him.

The Pension Record is only part of the WW1 record for the soldier.

But the pension record says their marriage was 3 June 1899 , and I've posted the marriage record.

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you mean?

AG ...............

that was the Pension Record that was posted above ................. I meant the full war record!

WW1 record already posted, Sylvia.

Charles named as William Charles on army record.

Peter posted ...........

"So a Beatrice Phipps marrys Charles Stephens in 1899
They have children one being a Bertrice Stephens who presumably married Reuben in 1942. If the mother beatrice married charles stephens why is she listed as beatrice phipps on the 1914 pension record?"


IF you can find Charles WW1 Record, you will find that the form asks for the MAIDEN name of the wife, and date and place when it took place.

Any children born of the marriage by date of enlistment are then shown with HIS surname, date and place of birth.

All entries had to be verified with certificates or other document.

It does not mean that Beatrice Sr was not married to him, just the way the information had to be provided!


I have just checked the above on my grandfather's record, which was almost complete.

You will be lucky if you can find the WW1 records ........... only about 30% have survived to the present day, and most of them are damaged to greater or lesser extent.


You can search either Ancestry or FindMyPast for free to see if there are any records for Charles, then you can either wait until one or other site offers a 2 week trial, enroll for it and examine the records yourself.

OR you could ask a member on here to look for you.

This is Beatrice's death, so she was born c1886 - so definitely the mother, not the daughter:

Deaths Mar 1953 (>99%)
WALTERS Beatrice 67 Caerleon 8c 178


Beatrice Walters
in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1995
Name: Beatrice Walters [ wife of Reuben Gregory Walters ]
Death Date: 7 Mar 1953
Death Place: Monmouthshire, Wales
Probate Date: 18 Mar 1954
Probate Registry: Llandaff

Because that was her name before she married Charles.

I don't think it's the daughter who married Reuben - it's Beatrice (the mother), who remarried later in life, and therefore the 1942 marriage shows both her maiden name and her first married name..

This may perhaps be Charles/William's death:

William Stephens
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: William Stephens
Death Age: 76
Birth Date: abt 1861
Registration Date: Jun 1937
Registration district: Forest of Dean
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 330

You need to buy their marriage certificates to discover which Beatrice married Reuben!

There is no way around it, I'm afraid. We can't answer the question for you!!!

Confused. Yes this is the correct Reuben my gt grandad.
So a Beatrice Phipps marrys Charles Stephens in 1899
They have children one being a Bertrice Stephens who presumably married Reuben in 1942. If the mother beatrice married charles stephens why is she listed as beatrice phipps on the 1914 pension record?

Re David A Hill -

I see two records. One has his name as David A Hill, the other David A P Hill.
Both show his wife as Margaret L Hill.

So David sometimes included his middle name, and sometimes didn't.

I don't see the male names you mention.


EDIT:
Ah, I think I see what you mean.
Seems to be a mistake on the GRO Index, or transcription form it - just looking into that . . . . .

EDIT AGAIN;

No, it's fine. There's a male/female Campbell/Hazzard marriage with the same ref nos. as the Hill marriage, but that's OK. Nothing to do with the Hill marriage - just another marriage entered on the same page.

So I'm not sure what you mean about the other male names.

Beatrice had been married before:


For our reference:

Marriages Sep 1942 (>99%)
Walters Reuben G Stephens Cardiff 11a 964
Walters Reuben G Phipps Cardiff 11a 964


For an idea of ages:

Births Dec 1884 (>99%)
WALTERS Reuben Gregory Basford 7b 111



Bertrice Phipps
in the British Army WWI Pension Records 1914-1920
Name: Bertrice Phipps
Gender: Female
Marriage Date: 3 Jun 1899
Marriage Place: Cardiff
Document Year: 1914
Relationship to Soldier: Spouse
Form Title: Military History Sheet
Number of Images: 7
Other Records:
Family Members:
Name Relation to Soldier
William Charles Stephens Self (Head) - c1860
Bertrice Phipps Spouse
Bertrice Stephens Child - 8 March 1902
Sudney Stephens Child - 27 May 1903
Olive Stephens Child - 1 May 1925
Clifford Stephens Child - 9 July 1906
Archie Stephens Child - 16 Feb 1909


Beatrice's first marriage:

Marriages Jun 1899 (>99%)
Phipps Beatrice Cardiff 11a 677
Stephens Charles Cardiff 11a 677

Reuben g Walters married in 1942 to Beatrice Phipps or Stephens?
Assumed she might have been married before but cant find a Phipps marrying a Stephens or a Stephens marrying a Phipps. ?

David A Hill married Margaret Hill in 1982 Surrey North Western. Margaret had previously changed her name to Hill by deed poll and David had adopted her daughter.
Two entries appear for this marriage . Looking at the detail though one entry refers to
David and Margaret but the other two show male names. Both have the same ref. Expected one line would have shown Margarets second or maiden name. Any ideas please.

An example from LancsBMD

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1837
SMITH Mary WILKINSON James Manchester Collegiate Church (later Manchester Cathedral) Archives+, Manchester Central Library CATH/3/3
TIMMIS Mary WILKINSON James Manchester Collegiate Church (later Manchester Cathedral) Archives+, Manchester Central Library CATH/3/3
WILKINSON James SMITH Mary Manchester Collegiate Church (later Manchester Cathedral) Archives+, Manchester Central Library CATH/3/3
WILKINSON James TIMMIS Mary Manchester Collegiate Church (later Manchester Cathedral) Archives+, Manchester Central Library CATH/3/3

One entry only on freebmd

Marriages Dec 1837 (>99%)

TIMMIS Mary Manchester 20 356
WILKINSON James Manchester 20 356

Obviously the 'double' entry for re-marriages applies only to women.

I have a cert for a man who changed his name by Deed Poll. The GRO entry is in one name only, although there is a notation on the cert referring to the change

Welcome to the boards, Peter.

Which website are you seeing these double entries on? How long ago did these marriages take place, and where?

You mention "a complete repeat" - can you paste an example?

If someone was known by two different names, then a marriage would be entered under both names. For instance, if a woman had been living with a man as his wife and had adopted his surname, and later married him, there might be one entry for her with her "actual" surname, and another with her adopted name.
Mary Smith, living with John Brown, and known as Brown, and eventually marrying him, would be shown as Mary Smith marrying John Brown, but also as Mary Brown marrying John Brown.

It may also depend on where the marriage took place.

In Scotland, if a woman who has been married before remarries, there is an entry for her under her maiden surname, and another under her first married surname.

Noticed that some marriages have two entries particularly when a remarriage. Sometimes both surnames shown other times a complete repeat. Also suspect this happens when someone has changed their name by depoll. What is the true story here?