Genealogy Chat

On the other hand -

there's this marriage :

Daniel Smith
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1837-1915
Name: Daniel Smith
Spouse Surname: Tucker
Registration Year: 1912
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Bedwellty
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 133
Records on Page:
Name
Daniel Smith
Sarah A Tucker

Is this a previous marriage (in spite of the fact that he says he's a bachelor in 1914) , or a different Daniel?


Children of that marriage:

Births Sep 1912 (>99%)
Smith Victor Tucker Bedwellty 11a 155

SMITH, IRIS MAY mms TUCKER
GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in BEDWELLTY Volume 11A Page 235

The second child was born after the date of Daniel's marriage to Mary Fleming - so either there were two Daniel Smiths in Bedwellty, or he and Sarah had divorced.

Maybe he didn't like having Hook as a name?! Or maybe Henry was a mistake by the registrar.

??

SMITH, JOHN HOOK mms FERRIS
GRO Reference: 1865 J Quarter in MALMSBURY Volume 05A Page 44


Jno Hook Smith
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Jno Hook Smith
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Son
Father's name: John Smith
Mother's name: Elizth Ann Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Corston, Wiltshire, England
Civil Parish: St Paul
Ecclesiastical parish: Bristol and Gloucester
Town: Malmesbury
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Registration district: Malmesbury
Sub-registration district: Malmesbury Western
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Household schedule number: 22
Piece: 1891
Folio: 7
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
John Smith 51
Elizth Ann Smith 47
Martha Jane Smith 16
Alfred Smith 14
Ann Salina Smith 12
Chas Jno Smith 8
Jno Hook Smith 5
Rosa Smith 7 Months
Emily Salome Smith 10


John Smith
in the 1881 England Census
Name: John Smith
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: John Smith
Mother: Elizabeth Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: Corston, Wiltshire, England
Civil Parish: Malmesbury St Paul
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Street address: Chippenham Road
Occupation: Labourer
Registration district: Malmesbury
Sub registration district: Malmesbury Western
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors:
Piece: 2027
Folio: 5
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
John Smith 58
Elizabeth Smith 56
Emily Smith 20
John Smith 16
Mark Smith 28
Margaret Smith 26
Emily Smith 5
Catharine Smith 3
Elizabeth Smith 1


John Smith
in the 1891 Wales Census
Name: John Smith
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Julia Smith
Gender: Male
Where born: England
Civil Parish: Llantarnam
Ecclesiastical parish: Llantarnam
Town: Cwmbran
County/Island: Monmouthshire
Country: Wales
Street address: View image
Condition as to marriage: View image
Education: View image
Employment status: View image
Occupation: View image
Registration district: Newport
Sub registration district: St Woollos
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Neighbors:
Piece: 4380
Folio: 157
Page Number: 30
Household Members:
Name Age
John Smith 25
Julia Smith 23
Daniel Smith 2


1901 and 1911,posted on previous page, both give his birthplace as Wiltshire.


John H Smith
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: John H Smith
Death Age: 85
Birth Date: abt 1867
Registration Date: Jun 1952
Registration district: Pontypool
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 8c
Page: 231


His father was also named John Hook Smith:


Ann Sabina Smith
in the Wiltshire, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1916
Name: Ann Sabina Smith
Gender: Female
Age: 25
Birth Date: abt 1859
Marriage or Bann Date: 17 May 1884
Marriage or Bann Place: Corston, All Saints with Rodbourne, Holy Rood, Wiltshire, England
Father: John Hook Smith
Spouse: Frederick George Tanner

John 'Hook' Smith and John Henry Smith?

Just for the record:

SMITH, DANIEL mms DESMOND
GRO Reference: 1889 J Quarter in NEWPORT MON Volume 11A Page 225

SMITH, GERTRUDE mms DESMOND
GRO Reference: 1896 D Quarter in NEWPORT MON Volume 11A Page 254

SMITH, ROSA JANE mms DESMOND
GRO Reference: 1891 D Quarter in NEWPORT MON Volume 11A Page


Parents' marriage:

Marriages Dec 1887 (>99%)
DESMOND Julia Newport, M. 11a 330
Smith John Hook Newport,M. 11a 330

The Smith/Fleming is on this link

https://imgur.com/a/ZC2M5un

Daniel Smith's declared age on 1 Jun 1914 is 25.
He was an Iron Moulder Journeyman.
His father John Henry Smith was a Casting Maker at an Iron Foundry.
Witnesses Patrick Lynch & Rosa Smith
The marriage took place in the RC church of St Michael, Clarence St, Illgmenlly?, Newport.
The cert was signed by the Parish Priest & the attending Registrar.

So, are you saying you have a copy of the cert of the Smith/Fleming marriage?

Yes ErikaH we have this on page one of this thread Daniel Smith born 1889..I suspect +++DetEcTive+++ has the correct Daniel in question.

The marriage cert would tell you his declared age, and his father's name (if known) which might help you to pinpoint him

That looks a very likely candidate in deed.

Ancestry is linking the 1911 census with this death

Daniel Smith
Death Age: 49
Birth Date: abt 1889
Registration Date: Dec 1938
Registration district: Bedwellty
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 81

Would it be worth purchasing a copy?

If I can pinpoint Daniel Smith it may answer a lot of questions in respects to my family research. Daniel can't just dissappear, there must be a record for him post 1915+

ErikaH absolutely! That's what makes this the more fascinating to me :-)

Her 'marriage' to Nelson is of questionable legality, in view of the fact that she used her maiden name.

People lied in those days just as much as they do now. And they were just as immoral - but usually a bit more discreet

Can only surmise that Mary Frances Fleming assumed the name Nelson up until 1928 whereupon she used the name legally upon her marriage to Richard Henry Nelson. It begs the question theirfore was she not free to marry until 1928?

Would this be them on the 1939 register?

Nelson Household (7 People)
36 Wellington Street , Stockton R.D., Durham, England

FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Mary F Nelson 17 Aug 1893 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 216 2
Richard H Nelson 13 Oct 1895 Male Boiler Maker Married 216 1
Richard H Nelson 10 Jul 1920 Male General Labourer Single 216 3
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Lawrence Nelson 07 Nov 1934 Male At School Single 216 7

It would be interesting to see how Richard 1920 birth was registered.
As its been transcribed as Richard E on freebmd, with no alternative surnames, one would probably assume that she presented herself as Mrs Nelson.

Births Sep 1920 (>99%)
Nelson Richard E Fleming Stockton 10a 160

Her daughter Mary came with her to Stockton. Mary Frances Fleming and Richard Henry Nelson appear to have children together certainly from about 1920. On Richard Henry Nelson's death certificate from the 1960s I see Mary Arbuckle (Smith) listed as informant step daughter.

Children out of wedlock is not at all unusual now, and never has been!

Divorce was expensive and rare plus she may have clung to that aspect of her RC faith. Many couples declare themselves to be married to each other when, in fact, the researcher knows jolly well that the legal spouse is living in the next village.

If she's had no contact with Daniel for a considerable number of years, she's more likely to declare herself a widow, erroneously believing that she could declare him dead without the formalities. This makes the Spinster status all the more puzzling.

Newport to Stockton is a heck of a long way. There probably wasn't much of a chance that anyone would know she'd been previously married especially if she arrived as part of Richard Nelson's family.

What happened to her daughter to Daniel Smith? Did she move with her, or was she left with other relatives?

I known Mary Frances Fleming was certainly no longer in the area by the early to mid 20's. She taken up with Richard Henry Nelson of Stockton but curiously they had children prior to marrying. That struck me as unusual for the time period.in fact they didn't marry until 1928. Why was that?

1915 birth of daughter Mary shows they were both living at 36 Alexandra Road Newport. His profession listed as Dock worker. Perhaps he joined the Navy?

Thanks guys very helpful. On the 1914 marriage license I think I got 226 Coronation Road, Cwwbran so certainly they were both of the area.