Genealogy Chat

Thanks Argyll Gran. He had 3 regimental numbers one in Penrose and one in Caless which I imagine is quite odd. There was a rumour my uncle told me that he was undercover for a time. Does that seem likely? I know nothing about military things and wouldn't know where to start. I couldn't even find Cyril Henry Penrose so you've done better than me already!!

Not really adding anything, but I don't think this has been posted before:

Cyril Henry Penrose
in the UK, World War I Pension Ledgers and Index Cards, 1914-1923

View Original Image on Fold3.
Name: Cyril Henry Penrose
Record Type: Card
Discharge Date: 6 Jul 1923
Service Number: 2448, 10185, 10566
Title: WWI Pension Record Cards and Ledgers
Description: Other Ranks Survived
Next of Kin:
Name Relation to Soldier
Cyril Henry Penrose



UK, Royal Hospital Chelsea Pensioner Soldier Service Records, 1760-1920
View Original Image on Fold3.
Name: John Henry Caless
Enlistment Age: 49
Birth Date: abt 1863
Birth Place: Bodicot Oxfordshire
Enlistment Year: 1912
Regiment: Lancers Of The Final
Regimental Number: Lers 10185
Attestation Paper: Yes

His real name was John Henry Caless.

His birth:

CALESS, JOHN HENRY mmn ABBOTT
GRO Reference: 1862 D Quarter in BANBURY UNION Volume 03A Page 630

So Cyril Henry Penrose is the alias.

Whatever his reason was, he signed up to the army in 1914 as Cyril, (per AustinQ's post in 2018) but was later outed as John Caless.
He was John Caless on all the censuses, so whatever caused him to use an alias may have happened between 1911 and 1914.

Perhaps some brush with the law?
You'll probably never know.


ADDED:

See next post for record which suggests he had joined up in 1912 as John Caless.

Looking at my 2018 comment by Austen Q I haven't really pursued this until now. I can't find any record of Cyril Henry Penrose which seems to be either my great grandfather's real name or an alias for John Henry Caless according to his military record as mentioned by Austen Q. Has anyone any ideas about this please?

Yes that’s his father and family. Thank you.
Sorry to all Scotsmen and women. Salty porridge is probably lovely, but as a four year old my mother didn’t like it!!

First name(s) WILLIAM
Last name CALESS
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1852
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ WILLIAM CALESS married
Ellen Abbott
District Brackley
District number -
County Northamptonshire
Country England
Volume 3B
Volume as transcribed 3B
Page number 1
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce
Collections from Great Britain, England
© brightsolid online publishing ltd

Record set Buckinghamshire Marriage Index
First name(s) William
Sex Male
Last name Caless
Marriage year 1838
Spouse's first name(s) Frances
Spouse's last name Jones
Denomination Anglican
County Buckinghamshire
Country England
Place Archdeaconry of Buckingham
Page 167
Residence Neithrop
Marriage date 05 Oct 1838
Spouse's residence Kings Sutton
Archive reference A-G
Record type Marriage Bonds & Allegations
Record's year range 1680-1855
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain
© Findmypast

William
Last name Caless
Name note -
Marriage year 1836
Marriage date 19 Oct 1836
Marriage place Banbury
Spouse's first name(s) Eliza
Spouse's last name Beere
County Oxfordshire
Country England
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain
Index (c) IRI. Used by permission of FamilySearch Intl

First name(s) William
Last name Caless
Gender Male
Birth year -
Birth place -
Baptism year 1817
Baptism date 29 Apr 1817
Place Banbury
County Oxfordshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Caless
Mother's first name(s) Esther
Mother's last name -
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain
Index (c) IRI. Used by permission of FamilySearch Intl

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Boddicott, Banbury, Oxfordshire, England

William Caless Head Married Male 43 1818 Farmer 543 Acres Employing 19 Men & 11 Boys Auctio Neithrop, Oxfordshire, England
Ellen Caless Wife Married Female 31 1830 - Banbury, Oxfordshire, England
Gertrude E Caless Daughter - Female 0 1861 - Bodicote, Oxfordshire, England
Mary A Abbotts Sister In Law Unmarried Female 20 1841 Companion Banbury, Oxfordshire, England
Henry Abbotts Brother In Law Unmarried Male 23 1838 Steward & Clerk Banbury, Oxfordshire, England
Julia Bourton Servant Unmarried Female 19 1842 Nurse Maid Northamptonshire, England
Phoebe Austee Servant Unmarried Female 18 1843 Housemaid Northamptonshire, England

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Adderbury East, Banbury, Oxfordshire, England

William Caless Head Married Male 33 1818 Farmer Of 333 Acres Employing 11 Laborers Neithrop, Oxfordshire, England
Frances Caless Wife Married Female 40 1811 - Launton, Oxfordshire, England
William Caless Son - Male 9 1842 Scholar Neithrop, Oxfordshire, England
Frances Mary Caless Daughter - Female 8 1843 Scholar Neithrop, Oxfordshire, England
Agnes Sarah Caless Daughter - Female 2 1849 - Neithrop, Oxfordshire, England
Ellen Abbotts Visitor Unmarried Female 21 1830 - Banbury, Oxfordshire, England
Thomas Cox Servant Unmarried Male 18 1833 Ag Laborer Adderbury, Oxfordshire, England
John Fincher Servant Unmarried Male 17 1834 Ag Laborer Deddington, Oxfordshire, England
John Gregory Servant Unmarried Male 18 1833 Ag Laborer Deddington, Oxfordshire, England
Martha Woolgrove Servant Unmarried Female 20 1831 - Deddington, Oxfordshire, England

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Boddicott House, Boddicott, Banbury, Oxfordshire, England

William Caless Head - Male 53 1818 - Oxfordshire, England
Ellen Caless Wife - Female 42 1829 - Oxfordshire, England
Ellen L Caless Daughter - Female 15 1856 - Oxfordshire, England
John H Caless Son - Male 8 1863 - Oxfordshire, England
Marian Caless Daughter - Female 4 1867 - Oxfordshire, England
Mirah Haynes Servant - Female 22 1849 - Oxfordshire, England
Emma Wyatt Servant - Female 17 1854 - Oxfordshire, England
Mary Ann Abbots Sister-In-Law - Female 30 1841 - Oxfordshire, England
Sarah Meddoms Niece - Female 10 1861 - Oxfordshire, England


Head of household, William Caless is an Auctioneer and Land Owner.

Some Scots would tell you that the only way to eat porridge is with salt, never sugar!

I've received the marriage certificate for John Caless and Constance Davies for 1915. He puts himself down as widower. So this marriage is invalid as Nancy is still alive!!!
He was residing in the army barracks at Tidworth as "Sergeant 7th Cavalry reserve" which was on his military records.
How can I find out what they did there? is there a website that can give me any information?
Any more advice for me about this story anyone???
Thank you

The record is a religious creed register showing dates of admission and discharge- so she wasn't there for employment. She was only there a little over two weeks before being discharged.

Thank you Shirley. I hadn’t noticed her change of religion.
So when it says she was the informant it indicates she took herself there for help or what? I know people worked there too so maybe she was employed to work in the workhouse. Is that likely?

The record say she was admitted from Ardwick and she was the informant so it looks like she was actually in the workhouse rather than the infirmary

She is recorded as C of E. but she is buried under the Catholic records in 1935

Nancy Shaw Caless
in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1987

Always possible she converted though

Yes that’s it. So she could have been there for medical treatment rather than being poor and destitute?

Det- I think this is the record that Glyn might be referring to:

Manchester Workhouse Registers

First name(s) Nancy
Last name Caless
Birth year 1861
Admission/Discharge year 1908-09
Admission year 1908
Admission day 01
Admission month Aug
Previous residence Ardwick
Place Manchester
Register book year 1908
Locality of record Manchester Withington Workhouse
Records title Creed Register
Date range 1908 - 1909

She was admitted on the 1st August 1908 and left on the 17th August 1908

Oh- but Nancy's father is living with a 'different wife' in 1861:

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Bruntcliffe, Morley, Dewsbury, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (West Riding), England

John Bateson Head Married Male 29 1832 Coal Miner Lancashire,
Sarah Bateson Wife Married Female 27 1834 - Bruntcliffe, Yorkshire,
Sarah Bateson Daughter Unmarried Female 8 1853 Scholar Bruntcliffe, Yorkshire,
Gilse Bateson Daughter Unmarried Female 5 1856 Scholar Bruntcliffe, Yorkshire,

(also a William Whitaker age 20 lodging at same address)
-------------------------------------

Well it wasn't his first wife- she was Mary:
Marriage:
Name: John Bateson (collier)
Marriage Age: Full Age
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 25 Aug 1851
Marriage Place: Bingley, All Saints, Yorkshire, England
Parish: Bingley, All Saints
Father: James Bateson
Spouse: Mary Whitacre
-----------------------------

Mary and John had another daughter:

BATESON, MARY (mother's maiden name: WHITEACRE)
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in DEWSBURY Volume 09B Page 396

looks like she died a few months later:

BATESON, MARY age: 0
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in DEWSBURY Volume 09B Page 285
----------------------------------------------

So this is possibly the death for John's first wife:

BATESON, MARY age: 25
GRO Reference: 1858 S Quarter in DEWSBURY Volume 09B Page 283
---------------------------------------------

It seems that many people who have ancestry trees, have incorrect information for John and his Wife/ Wives