Genealogy Chat

(to check for Mother Maiden Name on Birth, as below)

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp

BORRETT, ELIZABETH (UPSON)
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in HALSTEAD Volume 04A Page 421


Marriages Mar 1869 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------
Borrett Henry Sudbury 4a 500
Upson Mary Sudbury 4a 500

Chris :)

(for Edgar on 1881 above)

Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Edgar
Last name Borrett
Baptism year 1872
Baptism date 05 May 1872
Parish Holy Trinity
Place Long Melford
Father's first name(s) Henry
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Father's occupation Blacksmith
Relationship Son
Residence Melford
Notes bn 14 Mar
County Suffolk
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 4)


Marriages Mar 1892 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
Borrett Edgar Halstead 4a 579
Wadley Elizabeth Halstead 4a 579

(possible for him)

This looks like Lizzie's birth:-

First name(s) ELIZABETH
Last name BORRETT
Birth year 1876
Birth quarter 2
Registration month -
Mother's last name -
District Halstead
County Essex
Country England
Volume 4A
Page 421
Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006

Halstead registration district covers Colne, Essex.

Kath. x

Julia

If you read the posts very carefully, and I agree it can be confusing as we helpers have worked together to confimr or not various sggestions, this really looks as though it could be your grandfather's first marriage.

Marriages Jun 1909 (>99%)
BARTLETT George Henry Holborn 1b 1203
BORRETT Lizzie Holborn 1b 1203


Look at AustinQ's post at 10:41 for the transcript of their marriage, and for what seems to be the proof from censuses.


It seems that Lizzie died as Elizabeth Bartlett, and that there were no children of the marriage.

Of course, it is positing that he "changed" his name form Harry to Henry ....... both are / were commonly used interchangeably by many men

Thank you all so much for replying. My grandmother's name was Elsie, her maiden name was Livermore, although her maiden name was shown as Ford on her marriage certificate to my grandfather dated 16th November 1927. She was named as a 'spinster'. She had a child (I was led to believe, out of wedlock - Raymond Livermore Ford whose father on his birth certificate was Albert Ford. Elsie's surname on the certificate was Ford, formerly Livermore, but I have yet to find any evidence of a marriage. She later re-married a George Waller on 14th September 1946 (who was widowed)
My grandfather's parents (on the birth certificate I have got), are named as George and Ellen Bartlett (formerly Homes/Holmes).
But I still am not sure who my grandfather married before my grandmother.

PM sent to Julia to let her know there are replies and queries here - and how to reply.

London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906 (Ancestry)

George Harry Bartlett
7 Jun 1886 Islington Holy Trinity Islington
George Bartlett,
Helen Bartlett
(Abode, 5 Judd Street?. Father occ. Cloth Worker?)


Burial Register summary

Bartlett Ellen
Burial date 10 June 1886
Location Camden (St Pancras Cemetery)

https://www.deceasedonline.com/servlet/GSDOSearch

(if they relate)

Chris :)

Re AQ's theory that George Harry was Henry's brother George's son -

BARTLETT, GEORGE HARRY HOMES
GRO Reference: 1886 J Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 754


Marriages Dec 1884 (>99%)
Bartlett George Holborn 1b 1150
Holmes Helen Holborn 1b 1150


Possibility for Ellen/Helen's death, same qr as George's birth ???

Deaths Jun 1886 (>99%)
Bartlett Ellen 21 Holborn 1b 429



George Harry (?) in 1901, now listed as Henry's son;

George Bartlett
in the 1901 England Census
Name: George Bartlett
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Father: Henry Bartlett
Mother: Mary Bartlett
Birth Place: Clerkenwell, England
Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St James Pentonville
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: Amwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 07
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 252
Folio: 55
Page Number: 44
Household schedule number: 338
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Bartlett 37
Mary Bartlett 35 - born Suffolk
George Bartlett 14
(and 2 lodgers)



Henry & Mary in 1911 - MARRIED 25 YEARS, NO CHILDREN BORN:

Harry Bartlett
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Harry Bartlett
Age in 1911: 49
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Clerkenwell St James and Clerkenwell St John
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 13 Busaco Street, Pentonville Rd
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: JAPANER
Registration district: Holborn
Registration District Number: 14
Sub-registration district: Clerkenwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Piece: 1221
Household Members:
Name Age
Harry Bartlett 49
Maryann Bartlett 42 - born Suffolk

In case it's relevant:

Marriage: (Image on Ancestry)
Name: Lizzie Borrett
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Age: 33
Spouse: George Henry Bartlett
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 11 Apr 1909
Parish: St James, Clerkenwell
Borough: Islington
Father Name: Henry Borrett (Blacksmith)
Spouse Father: Henry Bartlett (Japanner)

Abode for both: 13 Busaco Street
Witnesses: Henry Bartlett, Henry Borret.
---------------------------------

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
13 Busaco ST, St James and St John Clerkenwell, London, England
Harry Bartlett Head Married Male Japaner 49 1862 Bloombury London
Mary Ann Bartlett Wife Married Female Dressmaker 47 1864 Ipswich Essex
------------------------------------

It's unlikely Henry was George's father as George is listed as Henry's nephew in 1891. So perhaps his Aunt and Uncle took him on as their own. I think George was the son of Henry's brother, George (who married Helen/ Ellen Holmes/ Homes).
-------------------------------------------------

Lizzie/ Elizabeth with her family in 1881:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
East Station Road, Long Melford, Sudbury, Suffolk, England

Henry Borrett Head Married Male 34 1847 Blacksmith Nayland, Suffolk, England
Mary Borrett Wife Married Female 36 1845 - Suffolk, England
Edgar Borrett Son Single Male 9 1872 Scholar Suffolk, England
Elizabeth Borrett Daughter Single Female 5 1876 - Earls Colne, Essex, England
John Borrett Son Single Male 3 1878 - Earls Colne, Essex, England
---------------------------------------------

I don't see any Bartlett/ Borrett births

Possible death for Lizzie/ Elizabeth:

name(s) ELIZABETH BARTLETT
Gender Female
Birth year 1876
Age 49
Death quarter 1
Death year 1925
District Shoreditch
County London
Volume 1C Page 64

Working back from Julia's name I think that's the correct marriage Sylvia.

George died in 1939 (so doesn't appear on the 1939 register)

Name: George H Bartlett
Birth Date: abt 1887
Date of Registration: Mar 1939
Age at Death: 52
Registration district: Edmonton
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 3a Page: 1096
-----------------------------------

Elsie remarried in 1946 to George Waller. This is Elsie in 1939:

Waller (Bartlett) Household 27 St Alphege Road , Edmonton M.B., Middlesex, England
Elsie L Waller (Bartlett) 14 Mar 1895 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Temporary Suvp Assistant Widowed
Closed Record
-----------------------------------------

Possibly their son George R in 1939:
Bridgman Household 11 Guithavon Street , Witham U.D., Essex, England

Dorothy M Bridgman 22 Jan 1897 Female Church House Caretaker Married
Closed record
Kenneth W Bridgman 02 Jun 1924 Male Errand Boy Hardware Single
Closed record
Frank W Bridgman 08 Mar 1929 Male At School Single
Closed record
Alice R Johnson 10 Jul 1874 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
George (Richard) Bartlett 19 Aug 1928 Male At School Single
Closed Record
-----------------------------------------------

And possibly daughter Rosina in 1939:

Squirrell Household (4 People) 10 Guithavon Street , Witham U.D., Essex, England

Frederick F Squirrell 04 Feb 1910 Male Baker & Roundsman Bread Married
Mabel R W Squirrell 19 Mar 1912 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Leonard Powell 08 Feb 1912 Male Certified Male Nurse Single
Closed record
Rosina (Mary) Martin (Skinner,Bartlett) 19 Dec 1929 Female At School Single

Julia ...........


was your grandmother also a widow when she married in 1927?

was she called Elsie?

Marriages Dec 1927 (>99%)
Bartlett George H Ford Edmonton 3a 1499
Ford Elsie L Bartlett Edmonton 3a 1499

re the marriage posted by AG ..............


from ancestry

London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: George Henry Bartlett
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Age: 22
Spouse: Lizzie Borrett
Spouse Age: 33
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 11 Apr 1909
Parish: St James, Clerkenwell
Borough: Islington
Father Name: Henry Bartlett
Spouse Father: Henry Borrett
Register Type: Parish Register


no image showing??


I can't check the image ............. but according to this transcript, Lizzie was 33, thus born ca 1876

and 11 years older than George Henry


However ...... BOTH their ages are quite different for those given on that 1911 Census ..............

George Bartlett 27
Lizzie Bartlett 29 - born Colne, Essex



HOWEVER ................


this again is George Henry, not George Harry


Harry can be used for Henry ....... so we also need to know how certain it is that we are looking for George Harry.

Re: safc's suggestion:

Birth:
BARTLETT, CLARA ELLEN Mother's maiden name HIGGINS
GRO Reference: 1911 M Quarter in MILTON Volume 02A Page 963

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1910 (>99%)

Bartlett George Henry Milton 2a 1789
Higgins Clara Milton 2a 1789

This was a George Henry, not George Harry with wife and daughter both named Clara.

We need more information about him, Julia, to know if we have the right man or not.

What was your grandmother's name?
Who were George Harry's parents? What were his siblings' names, if any?
Have you found him on any censuses?

A bit of wild guessing here, based on the supposition that the 1891 above is correct:

George Bartlett
in the 1911 England Census
Name: George Bartlett
Age in 1911: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1884
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: CLERKENWELL, London, England
Civil Parish: St Pancras
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 59 College Place, Camden Town N W
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: COACH PAINTERS BRUSH HAND
Registration district: St Pancras
Registration District Number: 9
Sub-registration district: East St Pancras
ED, institution, or vessel: 20
Piece: 731
Household Members:
Name Age
George Bartlett 27
Lizzie Bartlett 29 - born Colne, Essex
George McConnal 69 - lodger


Clerkenwell is in Holborn reg district.

Married 2 years, no children.


?????????????

Marriages Jun 1909 (>99%)
BARTLETT George Henry Holborn 1b 1203
BORRETT Lizzie Holborn 1b 1203


But I don't see a Lizzie Borrett from Colne, Essex in earlier censuses, nor her birth.
There are several Elizabeths from Earls Colne, but no Borretts

Births Jun 1886 (>99%)
Bartlett George Harry Holborn 1b 754


???

George Bartlett
in the 1891 England Census
Name: George Bartlett
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England
Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: Pentonville St James
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Holborn <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Sub registration district: Pentonville
ED, institution, or vessel: 5b
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 227
Folio: 62
Page Number: 47
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Bartlett 29
Mary A Bartlett 27 - born Suffolk
George Bartlett 5 - nephew
(and 2 boarders)

????


1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
41 Shortlands Road Sittingbourne, Sittingbourne, Kent, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
George H Bartlett Head Married Male Horse Driver 26 1885 Faversham
Transcription
Clara Bartlett Wife Married Female - 20 1891 Milton
Transcription
Clara Ellen Bartlett Child - Female - 0 1911 Sittingbourne

Have a look for him on the 1911 census to see if he is married / single etc

Then try freebmd for any marriage

You may find him with a wife and children on the census

Where did he marry and who please as there are several marriages for George h Bartlett

After obtaining marriage certificates etc., I have discovered that my maternal grandfather - George Harry Bartlett born in 1886 was a widower when he married my grandmother in 1927. How can I find out whether or not he had children from his previous marriage?
Thank you in advance.
Julie