Genealogy Chat

(oops!, apologies there Keith, yes,was that one from Find My Past)

Chris :)

Hi Chris

A while back you said:

(from things google, Robert Ramm, a wheelwright/Blacksmith. Burial 1846 Hockering. Lucy Burial 1856 Hockering)

I've been unable to trace the Robert Ramm burial in 1846, might you be able to recall where you found it? The death record I have is 1848:

Name: Robert Ramm
Registration Year: 1848
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Mitford
Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 13
Page: 178

and there's this burial record:

National Burial Index for England & Wales Transcription
First name(s) ROBERT
Last name RAMM
Birth year 1785
Death year 1848
Age 63
Burial year 1848
Burial day 26
Burial month 3
Place HOCKERING
Church description ST MICHAEL
Church denomination ANGLICAN
County Norfolk
Country England
Record set National Burial Index for England & Wales
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Deaths & burials
Collections from Great Britain

which looks likely to me.

Thanks

Keith

yes, not an easy lot to sort!...(for online coverage for Hockering on FreeReg, see below, scroll down to end)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/freereg_contents/Hockering/show_place

Chris :)

Thank you Chris, I did see your earlier post but I still haven't worked my way through all the information in the thread.

The first thing to say is that there are a lot of Brightys in Hockering, they must be related but I haven't spent any time on figuring out how. Also they follow the time-honoured practice of passing given names from father to son so there is a plethora of John Brightys and I sometimes lose track of generations.

Then the intermarriage with the Stevensons. Two children of John Brighty and Elizabeth Ramm married to children of Robert & Hannah Stevenson.

I was not convinced that the Ramm family were relevant but, looking at the marriage certificate again, both interpretations are possible. And given that you can find a Ramm family and I can't find a Ramon family, (and noting that John Brighty 1854 was also a wheelwright!) I'm coming around to your way of thinking, thank you!!

Keith

(had posted below earlier in 'Thread', but didn't find John/Elizabeth Marriage!)

Chris :)

Clara Brighty
abt 1848 12 Oct 1873 John Thomas Stevenson St Jude, Southwark

(above Marriage, London, Ancestry, Father John, wits. John/Elizabeth Brighty)

(also below, Father John)

John Brighty
20 Sep 1874 Hannah Stevenson Holy Trinity, Newington

(notes both John Thomas and Hannah, have Father as Robert Stevenson. occ Platelayer)


(1881, Clara/JT, 49, Gladstone Street, Norwich Heigham, Norwich, Norfolk,


01 June 1889 - Thetford & Watton Times and People's Weekly Journal

Death
On the 22nd ult, at Hockering, John Brighty, carrier, aged 79, surviving his wife one year and eleven months.


Deaths Jun 1889 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------
BRIGHTY John 80 Mitford 4b 170


Deaths Jun 1887 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Brighty Elizabeth 75 Mitford 4b 178

(if relating)


Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Hockering
Church name St Michael
Register type Transcript
Register entry number 501
Baptism date 1811
Person forename Elizabeth
Person sex F
Father forename Robert
Father surname RAMM
Mother forename Lucy
Mother surname DAWSON

http://www.freereg.org.uk/


(from things google, Robert Ramm, a wheelwright/Blacksmith. Burial 1846 Hockering. Lucy Burial 1856 Hockering) (Lucy Ramm with family 1851, Sylvia posted)


http://www.origins.org.uk/genuki/NFK/places/h/hockering/

(mentions in Directories on above Robert, also John)


England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription (Find My Past)

First name(s) Robert
Last name Ram
Marriage year 1810
Marriage date 28 Oct 1810
Marriage place Foulsham
Spouse's first name(s) Lucy
Spouse's last name Dawson
Residence Foulsham, Norfolk, England

SylviaInCanada

The GRO Index shows Eliza and Clara with different mmn

Eliza as Ramm, and Clara as Rawlin

Thanks for spotting that. The best evidence I have is that Eliza's mother was Elizabeth Ramon (rather than Ramm) - although I have yet to find her birth record. [Thinking about it, I haven't looked for John Brighty marrying a second Elizabeth ...] That suggests that the record was mis-transcribed at some point. There is another example of the same mis-transcription in one of the census records - in the image it's quite clear (to me ) that the word is Ramon.

If mis-transcription is a possible explanation, then might it be that Rawlin was a similar mistranscription?

Is there a way to check this?

Keith

ArgylGran - I'm pretty sure your are right about Harry Littleboy Brighty, Margaret Brighty went on to marry George Littleboy in 1862. Thanks for the pointer!
Keith

The one I found was:

BRIGHTY, ADA FLORENCE EATON Order
GRO Reference: 1874 D Quarter in SHOREDITCH Volume 01C Page 114

mmn "wrong" in both cases, but you never know ...

It seems that Brighty is the correct version of the name (it is the most frequent version) but Brightly or Brightley seem to be alternatives.

Keith

I can't see the Ada Brightly birth you mention, Keith.
Can you post it, please?

The only one I can see is this:

BRIGHTLEY, ADA mms LOCKYER
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 408

BUT, I see that on the Ancestry transcription, someone has added Brightly as an alternative surname for Ada.

Yes, but unfortunately there's no explanation given. It's a confusion brought about by the entry in the image where Ada Chapman appears after Eliza and is described as child of head of household. There's no telling whether whoever suggested the alternative had a reason beyond the image for doing so.

Thanks for the background on the Stevensons!

The Ada in the C1881 is an interesting thought ...

Keith

Re Eliza / Ada:

Enis (or whatever her name is) is listed as John's sister in 1891.
She and Ada were both born in Kent, apparently - but John was born in Norfolk.
Ada's aged 16.


Don't know if relevant, but in the 1881 census for Daniel & Rosa Chapman, posted on page 1 by Sylvia, they have a daughter Ada, aged 6, born London.


EDIT:

BUT, I see that on the Ancestry transcription, someone has added Brightly as an alternative surname for Ada.

I'm ignoring Eliza / Ada for the moment and going to the Stevenson question.

Hannah Brighty was born Wisbech, Cambridgeshire.

Her marriage to John:

Marriages Sep 1874 (>99%)
Brighty John St. Saviour 1d 66
Stevenson Hannah St. Saviour 1d 66



Re Hannah and Susan Stevenson who appear on the 1881 census with the Brightys:

they were born Horbling, Lincs. Per 1881 census, Hannah was married and Susan unmarried.

So this is Hannah in 1871:

Hannah Stevenson
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Hannah Stevenson
Age: 48
Estimated birth year: abt 1823
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert Stevenson
Gender: Female
Where born: Horbling, Lincolnshire, England
Civil Parish: Wisbech St Peter
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
Town: Wisbech
County/Island: Cambridgeshire
Country: England
Registration district: Wisbech
Sub-registration district: Wisbech
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Household schedule number: 179
Piece: 1616
Folio: 59
Page Number: 26
Household Members:
Name Age
Robert Stevenson 53 - born Longtoft, Lincs.
Hannah Stevenson 48
Hannah Stevenson 17
George W Stevenson 12
Emily Stevenson 9


Marriages Jun 1843 (>99%)
BRUMBLEY Hannah Bourn 14 411
STEVENSON Robert Bourne 14 411


Presumably Robert's christening:

Robert Stevenson
England Births and Christenings
Name Robert Stevenson
Gender Male
Christening Date 20 Apr 1817
Christening Place Langtoft, Lincoln, England
Father's Name Francis Stevenson
Mother's Name Elizabeth


Susan Stevenson doesn't appear to be a sister of Robert.
Perhaps this is her - but in that case she's not even a sister-in-law, as Henry's not Robert's brother:

Susan Stevenson
in the 1851 England Census
Name: Susan Stevenson
Age: 31
Estimated birth year: abt 1820
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Henry Stevenson
Gender: Female
Where born: Horbling, Lincolnshire, England
Civil Parish: Horbling
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Lincolnshire
Country: England
Registration district: Bourn
Sub-registration district: Corby
ED, institution, or vessel: 5c
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 44
Piece: 2095
Folio: 201
Page Number: 11
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry Stevenson 28 - born Billingborough, Lincs
Susan Stevenson 31
Robert Stevenson 7
George Stevenson 6
Ann Stevenson 2


Henry Stevenson
England Births and Christenings
Name Henry Stevenson
Gender Male
Christening Date 25 Mar 1822
Christening Place BILLINGBOROUGH,LINCOLN,ENGLAND
Father's Name Thomas Stevenson
Mother's Name Elisabeth


I give up on whether Hannah and Susan Stevenson were related to Hannah Brighty or not!

Also, I have traced quite a bit about the Brighty family. In the C1891 thre's this:

Name: John Brightly
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Hannah Brightly
Gender: Male
Where born: Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Clapham
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Wandsworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 443
Folio: 110
Page Number: 14
Household Members:
Name Age
John Brightly 37
Hannah Brightly 37
John Brightly 12
Enis Chapman 39
Ada Chapman 16
Geo Savage 50
John Everett 30

Here the interest is in Enis Chapman and Ada Chapman. I can't make anything other than Enis from the image but it seems likely that this is Eliza Chapman from the above discussion, living with her brother John. Ada looks from the image to be Eliza's daughter but I can't find a suitable birth record - but there is an Ada Brightly in the GRO index - but there is no Ada in the C1881:

Name: John Brighty
Age: 27
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Hannah Brighty
Gender: Male
Where born: Hockering, Norfolk, England
Civil Parish: Heigham
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England
Street address: 17 Connaught Rd
Marital Status: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Baker
Registration district: Norwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1952
Folio: 32
Page Number: 12
Household Members:
Name Age
John Brighty 27
Hannah Brighty 27
John Brighty 3
Hannah Stevenson 59
Susan Stevenson 45


(I think the Stevensons are relations of Hannah, I've not traced them yet).

What does the team think of the Eliza / Ada entries, please?

Keith

mmm... something odd happened to that last post of mine, after the === it should have said:

safc found this:

England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription
Print transcription
First name(s) Daniel
Last name Chapman
Name note -
Marriage year 1857
Marriage date 07 Jul 1857
Marriage place Marylebone
Father's first name(s) James
Father's last name Chapman
Spouse's first name(s) Rosa Oxley
Spouse's last name Clements
Spouse's father's first name(s) Thomas Oxley
Spouse's father's last name Clements
Residence Marylebone, Middlesex, England
County Durham
Country England
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

Index (c) IRI. Used by permission of FamilySearch Intl

Where might that reference to Durham have come from? Given this:

Name: Daniel Chapman
Spouse: Rosa Oxley Clements
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 7 Jul 1857
Parish: St Marylebone
Borough: Westminster
Father Name: James Chapman
Spouse Father: Thomas Oxley Clements
Register Type: Parish Register

Witnesses:
Charles ?????? Hart?
Rosa Stead-Sobieski Hart

I understand that records on Family Search can be altered by anyone, if that’s correct I’m inclined to discount the Durham reference. Or am I trying too hard to justify the Durham > Dereham hypothesis?

??? Rosa's death

CHAPMAN, ROSA 75
GRO Reference: 1907 S Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 382

I don’t think that can be right, Rose seems to be here in C1911

Name: Rose Oxley Chapman
Age in 1911: 80
Estimated birth year: abt 1831
Relation to Head: Aunt
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Lambeth, London, England
Civil Parish: New Sarum

County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England
Street address: 101 Fisherton St, Salisbury, Wilts
Marital Status: Widowed
Registration district: Salisbury
Registration District Number: 253
Sub-registration district: Salisbury
ED, institution, or vessel: 2
Household schedule number: 142
Piece: 12105
Household Members:
Name Age
Charlotte Mary Jane Chapman 44
Rose Oxley Chapman 80
Thomas Gwynne Ellis 25

There is a more likely death:

Name: Rose Chapman
Estimated birth year: abt 1829
Registration Year: 1915
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 86
Registration district: Salisbury

Inferred County: Wiltshire
Volume: 5a
Page: 223

She was living in Salisbury in C1911

===

safc found this:

England Marriages 1538-1973 Transcription
Print transcription
First name(s) Daniel
Last name Chapman
Name note -
Marriage year 1857
Marriage date 07 Jul 1857
Marriage place Marylebone
Father's first name(s) James
Father's last name Chapman
Spouse's first name(s) Rosa Oxley
Spouse's last name Clements
Spouse's father's first name(s) Thomas Oxley
Spouse's father's last name Clements
Residence Marylebone, Middlesex, England
County Durham Dereham hypothesis?

Keith

(Post Office London Directory, 1841. [Part 1: Street, Commercial, & Trades Directories)

(looks to be similar above, from below, Historical Directories)

http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/

Directories are held at Local Archives, holdings for London are at LMA. (Trade ones probably useful) (also, google search sometimes brings results)

Chris :)

(John Fillip just added, in case Southwark was a connection for them!)

Thanks, ArgyllGran, it might indeed be something as simple as "it sounds better". Occam's Razor!

I haven't yet found a "Clements" in Sobieski's ancestors, which is not to say that there isn't one. I don't even know where Clementina comes from.

Sobieski was indeed the daughter of William & Sobieski Hart (née Harrison). Sobieski Harrison's mother was Sobieski Theyer, and her mother was Sarah French. (Caveat, these are not results of my own research - yet).

But I have nothing at all before Thomas.

Keith

Thanks Chris. I see among the directories on genuki an edition of Kelly's, is there somewhere where copies of Kelly's are collected or are they distributed over lots of sites?

The reason I ask is that I found a reference to Sobieski here:

http://newcutmarket.blogspot.fr/2014/05/kellys-postal-directory-list-lower.html

(see #45) which is an extract from one edition of Kelly's.

Please can you say where you are going with the Fillip reference?

Keith

(and just to add, by reading back, doesn't look like Marriage of John and Elizabeth was found... did add below to earlier post)

Chris :)

01 June 1889 - Thetford & Watton Times and People's Weekly Journal

Death
On the 22nd ult, at Hockering, John Brighty, carrier, aged 79, surviving his wife one year and eleven months.


Deaths Jun 1889 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------
BRIGHTY John 80 Mitford 4b 170


Deaths Jun 1887 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Brighty Elizabeth 75 Mitford 4b 178

(if relating)


Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Hockering
Church name St Michael
Register type Transcript
Register entry number 501
Baptism date 1811
Person forename Elizabeth
Person sex F
Father forename Robert
Father surname RAMM
Mother forename Lucy
Mother surname DAWSON

(from things google, Robert Ramm, a wheelwright/Blacksmith. Burial 1846 Hockering. Lucy Burial 1856 Hockering)


http://www.origins.org.uk/genuki/NFK/places/h/hockering/

(mentions in Directories on above, also John)


Edits (for other query, just to add, noticed a John Fillip?, witness on 1821 Marriage (London, Ancestry) only similar seems to be below?)

1851 (Find My Past)
John Fillip Head Married Male 30 1821 Brewer's Dray Man Isle of Man, Isle of Man, Isle of Man (age 50 on image)
Eliza Fillip Wife Married Female 52 1799 Dress Maker Southwark, Surrey, England
John Fillip Son - Male 21 1830 Watch Maker Southwark, Surrey, England
Street Dudley Street
Parish Saint Giles in the Fields
City Finsbury
County Middlesex
Parliamentary borough Finsbury
Registration district St Giles in the Fields & St George Bloomsbury
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 1509
Folio 402
Page 39

(as you know from his Probate, Thomas Oxley, Potato Merchant, Southwark)


(other references, FMP)

Clements Thomas Oxley — 1831 Southwark Rate Books
(Market Street, Boro)


CLEMENTS THOMAS OXLEY — 1838 England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 St. Luke, London, England


Clements Thomas Oxley 1801 — 1838 Greater London Burial Index Lambeth, St John the Evangelist, Waterloo, London, Surrey, England


Clements Thomas Oxley 1806 — 1843 Greater London Burial Index Tower Hamlets, London, Middlesex
(removed from St. John, Waterloo)

lol Keith, I think the newspaper searching comes down to keywords sometimes, very addictive!.

You need to see below items...(from British Newspaper Archives, but also on FMP)

(a 'Thread' was posted recently about an offer, the one below)


https://www.myvouchercodes.co.uk/historic-news-papers


http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_chat/thread/1363387

Chris :)


Saturday 01 December 1934 , Portsmouth Evening News , Hampshire, England

Loyal DIAMOND RING Left to Town Station Assistant SOUTHSEA BEQUESTS Mr. Charles Herbert Oxley Chapman, 3, Freestone Road. Southsea, who died on October 12 last, left estate of the gross value of £13,833 11s., with net personalty ...


Friday 02 November 1934 , Portsmouth Evening News , Hampshire, England

LEGAL NOTICE
LEGAL NOTICE. CHARLES HERBERT OXLEY CHAPMAN, deceased, late of 3. Freestone Road. Southsea, who died on the l‘2th dav of October, 1934. CREDITORS and OTHERS havinc CLAIMS against the Estate of the above named deceased are requested forthwith to send ... ”


Thursday 07 October 1920 , Portsmouth Evening News , Hampshire, England

(SPECIAL TELEGRAM.;
to Henry V. S. Stanton, “Wanderer,” of the “Sportsman”; £2O to Sydney Pardon, editor of “Wisden’s Almanack”; to Charles Herbert Oxley Chapman, late manager of Messrs. Smith and Sons’ bookstall at the Waterloo Loop-line Station



TH* RVENING NEWS, TUESDAY, AUGUST 15. 1944

TUESDAY, AUGUST 15. 1944. RE MRS. JULIA JANE CHAPMAN deceased PURSUANT to the Trustee Act 1925. ALL PERSONS having claims against the estate of JULIA JANE CHAPMAN late of The Hawthorns South Road ... ”


Tuesday 20 June 1944 , Portsmouth Evening News , Hampshire, England

DEATHS
On June 16th. at Ihe Hawthorns, South Road, Uorndean, Julia, widow Charles Chapman, 3, Freestone Road, southsea. Aged 64.


https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

(both are on above)