Genealogy Chat

Keith ............

you asked about the census process in 1881.

It's really a matter of supposition as the original census sheets for all censuses from 1841 to 1901 were destroyed after the information had been transferred into the census books. So we really don't know who filled in the sheets, or whether all entries were in the same hand

It seems as if there were several different ways ............... but all are coloured by that fact that the earlier censuses often involved illiterate households and only slightly more literate enumerators. Hence the wild and wonderful mis-spellings.

They are also all coloured by the fact that there was much more movement around the country even in 1841 than one might think, so you had a Lancashire enumerator trying to deal with a Devon or Norfolk or Buckinghamshire accent, or even vice versa.

Then we have the fact that it might not be the head of house who gave the information ........ it might have been one of the children or even a neighbour. How much did a neighbour know??

Ages can differ because birthdays meant much less to them back in the 1840s, 1850s etc ....... so parents really might not know children's ages, let alone their own. Ages also differ because of the time of year the census was taken vs a person's actual birthday.

In some cases it seems that the census sheets were left at the house to be filled in by the householder .......... but then the enumerator might have to do it.

Following my last post:

And Thomas again, to 1890, when he's a foreman shunter, and transferred (promoted ?) "to Inspector here" - ie - Euston.

Thos Chapman
in the UK, Railway Employment Records, 1833-1956
Name: Thos Chapman
Age: 20
Birth Date: 25 Oct 1855
Residence Date: May 1876
Station: Euston
Company: London and North Western


And possibly the same person in 1876, when he started on May7th as a parcels porter. No service number given - but this is a different railway:

T Chapman
in the UK, Railway Employment Records, 1833-1956
Name: T Chapman
Residence Date: 7 May 1876
Station: Reading
Company: Great Western
Description: Pay Bill book from Reading station giving names and rates of pay of staff 1876-1877


Still can't find him on any censuses after 1881.

it almost makes me think that he is living under another name.

He's obviously not with Eliza, so the marriage seems to have broken up.

.......... the question is, how to find him!

???????????????

This guy is an Assistant Station Master, reference AG's post of 22:25, but birth place is wrong IF it is "your" TC

from FMP

1901 Census

Thomas Chapman Head Married Male 44 1857 Assistant Rly Station Master Stoke, Somerset, England
Ellen Chapman Wife Married Female 46 1855 - Stoke, Somerset, England
Ellen Chapman Daughter Single Female 15 1886 - London, Middlesex, England
Beatrice Chapman Daughter - Female 12 1889 - London, Middlesex, England
Theodore Chapman Son - Male 10 1891 - London, Middlesex, England
Violet Chapman Daughter - Female 9 1892 - London, Middlesex, England
B Lillian Chapman Daughter - Female 4 1897 - London, Middlesex, England


GRO Index shows mmn for the 3 youngest children is Deedman.

NO marriage found for Thomas Chapman and surname Deedman


However, there is this birth in Stoke, Somerset ......

Births Jun 1858 (>99%)
Chapman Thomas Taunton 5c 428



This is the same family in 1891 ...........

Thomas Clapman Head Married Male 33 1858 Railway Shunter Bridgwater, Somerset, England
Ellen Clapman Wife Married Female 36 1855 - Guildford, Surrey, England
Georgia A Clapman Daughter - Female 11 1880 Scholar London, England
William J Clapman Son - Male 10 1881 - London, England
Agnes J Clapman Daughter - Female 8 1883 - London, England
Maude Clapman Daughter - Female 6 1885 - London, England
Ellen Clapman Daughter - Female 5 1886 - London, England
Beatrice Clapman Daughter - Female 2 1889 - London, England
Theodore S Clapman Son - Male 0 1891 - London, England



Question is .................

Is this Thomas the only Railwayman, or was TDOC also employed on the railways?

Looking back to 1882 Marriage, Southwark, Thomas occ. Railway Clerk, Father Daniel, occ. Station Master...


So his Brother (apologies, had posted Uncle!) was Charles Herbert Oxley Chapman...(Booksellers Clerk/Manager Messrs. Smith and Sons bookstall, Waterloo Station)

Deaths Dec 1934 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Chapman Charles H O 75 Portsmouth 2b 734

Chris :)


As for Eliza Brighty, as posted earlier, her sister Clara married in 1873, Southwark (John Thomas Stevenson) and brother John married Hannah Stevenson 1874, Southwark (both have Father, Robert Stevenson, occ. Plate Layer)

(she and son Daniel are with John/Hannah Brighty 1901) (that occ. for Daniel looks like Mechanical Dentistry, have seen this before!)

http://www.nature.com/bdj/journal/v199/n6/full/4812783a.html

(125 years of developments in dentistry, 1880–2005)

(reference to it above)


UK, Dentist Registers, 1879-1942 (Ancestry)

(not seeing him on above, but these are not always complete)

This is him- working the same Rail company as his father. He was a clerk, so I doubt he'd be shunting trains. According to his records he resigned in 1889.

Railway Employment Records, 1833-1956

Name: T D O Chapman
Age: 15
Birth Date: abt 1858
Residence Date: Mar 1873
Company: London and South Western
Description: Clerical staff character book No. 1 1838 - 1877

Junior Clerk Rowland's Castle @ £30
Salary raised to £35 March 1874
Promoted to Milford June 1874
Salary raised to £40 March 1875
Removed to Ludgate June 1875 (raised to £50 March 1876)
Appointed Clerk £60 1877
----------------------------------------------

A later record has him just listed as T D Chapman- but it is the same man:

Salary raised to £70 Oct 1878
Salary raised to £80 Nov 1879
Removed to Barnes March 1889
Removed to Vauxhall June 1889
Resigned July 1889

Hmmm - resigned just in time to disappear from the census records!

Just for the record - here's the marriage of that Thomas Chapman from Somerset, who IS NOT the one we're looking for:

Marriages Sep 1878 (>99%)
Chapman Thomas Hampstead 1a 1164a
GUNNER Ellen Deedman Hampstead 1a 1164a


Of the children listed in 1891, Georgina Amy's mother's surname was Gunner, and William Thomas's (William T as per Ancestry's transcription, see below) was Deedman.


Georgina A Chapman
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Georgina A Chapman
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1880
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Thomas Chapman
Mother's name: Ellen Chapman
Gender: Female
Where born: N W, London, England
Civil Parish: St Pancras
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrews
County/Island: London
Country: England
:Registration district: Pancras
Sub registration district: Kentish Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 134
Folio: 89
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Chapman 33
Ellen Chapman 36
Georgina A Chapman 11
William T Chapman 10
Agnes I Chapman 8
Maude Chapman 6
Ellen Chapman 5
Beatrice Chapman 2
Theodore S Chapman 11/12

Where did you find those railway employment records, I've not seen those before, my fault probably for looking in specific places (eg bmd or census) rather than searching everything. Thanks very much for them, ArgyllGran.

And Chris, how did you find:

So his Brother (apologies, had posted Uncle!) was Charles Herbert Oxley Chapman...(Booksellers Clerk/Manager Messrs. Smith and Sons bookstall, Waterloo Station)

I had him as bookseller but the company and location? Brilliant! Thank you.

Thank you for the explanation of the C1881 process, SylviaInCanada. It was pretty much as I expected / feared - highly variable!

It leaves more than enough wiggle room for Dereham -> Durham and I guess we'll never know "for sure", I'l have to accept circumstantial evidence.

Thanks also for this clarification, ArgyllGran:

Births Sep 1850 (>99%)
Brighty Eliza Mitford &c 13 229

Keith

Info re rail employment records are on Ancestry.

Details re Charles Herbert Oxley Chapman- not sure where Chris got the information but there are a few references to him in the newspapers:

Here he is mentioned in the will of Hector Harry Hyslop:

Portsmouth Evening News - Thursday 07 October 1920
"£40 to Charles Herbert Oxley Chapman, late manager of Messrs. Smith and Sons’ bookstall at the Waterloo Loop-line Station"

Newspapers Keith...(noted he came up on past 'Thread' with wife Julia Jane, Mortlocks tie in also)

Deaths Dec 1934 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Chapman Charles H O 75 Portsmouth 2b 734


Deaths Jun 1944 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Chapman Julia J 84 Petersfield 2c 198


Marriages Mar 1885 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Chapman Charles Herbert O Portsea 2b 623
Newton Julia Jane Portsea I. 2b 623


Birth
NEWTON, JULIA JANE MORTLOCK
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 455

Chris :)

UK, Railway Employment Records, 1833-1956 (Ancestry)

(apologies AQ, just seen you!)

Chris :)

Edits (Charles was on below)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1239531?page=2

I had expected the Mortlocks to tie in here and there ;-)

Thanks for the explanations, I still don't understand it, I hardly ever strike gold with newspapers yet Chris always seems to find treasure. It's going to take the rest of the week to sort through and record all these details, I'm very grateful, thank you all very much.

Might you also like to have a look at a related challenge? Thomas Oxley Clements 1792 started out life - apparently - as Thomas Oxley. He married Sobieski Clementina Hart 1799 as Thomas Oxley in 1821. His children were named Oxley until about 1830 at which point he became Thomas Oxley Clements and the children were named Clements.

This was the father of Rose Oxley Clements who married Daniel Chapman, the father in the 1881 census we have just been looking at. Thomas died in 1838, just in time to miss the C1841. In the probate record 16 November 1838 he is "Thomas Oxley Clements otherwise Thomas Oxley". Sobieski's probate 6 May 1881 has her as Sobieski Clementine Oxley Clements.

I've not been able to find a believable parentage for Thomas, which might provide a reason for the change of name around 1830, might you have more luck?

Keith

Funnily enough, it was working through that previous thread to which Chris referred that got me started on this thread. I'm going through a lot of stuff I did "in the early days" and trying to do it better, recording more information (particularly place) and seeing the interconnections.

Fentiman Road is a case in point: number 165 was mentioned earlier in this thread as the residence of some Chapmans around 1900, number 67 was home to my paternal grandfather around 1915.

Edith Rose Chapman 1888, grand-daughter to Daniel, was my godmother (or so I was told, are godparents recorded anywhere?) and a close friend of my parents. I'd love to find out what the link was!

Keith

You said Thomas Oxley's children were named Oxley until c1830.

Yes, but they had Clements as a middle name:

England Births and Christenings
Name Thomas Clements Oxley
Gender Male
Christening Date 22 Mar 1822
Christening Place Saint Mary,Lambeth,Surrey,England
Father's Name Thomas Clements Oxley
Mother's Name Sobieski


England Births and Christenings
Name Georgiana Clements Oxley
Gender Female
Christening Date 22 Aug 1827
Christening Place SAINT JOHN THE EVANGELIST,LAMBETH,SURREY,ENGLAND
Father's Name Thomas Oxley
Mother's Name Sobieskis


England Births and Christenings
Name Caroline Clements Oxley
Gender Female
Christening Date 01 Jan 1826
Christening Place SAINT JOHN THE EVANGELIST,LAMBETH,SURREY,ENGLAND
Father's Name Thomas Oxley
Mother's Name Sobieski



Could Clements be something to do with Sobieski's middle name of Clementina?

Maybe they switched the names around just because it sounded better when used as a double-barrelled name. Oxley Clements flows better than Clements Oxley!

Was Sobieski the daughter of William & Sobieski Hart? I don't see her christening, but they were having children at least from 1802 to 1821, in Lambeth.

Maybe Clements was her mother's surname.

lol Keith, I think the newspaper searching comes down to keywords sometimes, very addictive!.

You need to see below items...(from British Newspaper Archives, but also on FMP)

(a 'Thread' was posted recently about an offer, the one below)


https://www.myvouchercodes.co.uk/historic-news-papers


http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_chat/thread/1363387

Chris :)


Saturday 01 December 1934 , Portsmouth Evening News , Hampshire, England

Loyal DIAMOND RING Left to Town Station Assistant SOUTHSEA BEQUESTS Mr. Charles Herbert Oxley Chapman, 3, Freestone Road. Southsea, who died on October 12 last, left estate of the gross value of £13,833 11s., with net personalty ...


Friday 02 November 1934 , Portsmouth Evening News , Hampshire, England

LEGAL NOTICE
LEGAL NOTICE. CHARLES HERBERT OXLEY CHAPMAN, deceased, late of 3. Freestone Road. Southsea, who died on the l‘2th dav of October, 1934. CREDITORS and OTHERS havinc CLAIMS against the Estate of the above named deceased are requested forthwith to send ... ”


Thursday 07 October 1920 , Portsmouth Evening News , Hampshire, England

(SPECIAL TELEGRAM.;
to Henry V. S. Stanton, “Wanderer,” of the “Sportsman”; £2O to Sydney Pardon, editor of “Wisden’s Almanack”; to Charles Herbert Oxley Chapman, late manager of Messrs. Smith and Sons’ bookstall at the Waterloo Loop-line Station



TH* RVENING NEWS, TUESDAY, AUGUST 15. 1944

TUESDAY, AUGUST 15. 1944. RE MRS. JULIA JANE CHAPMAN deceased PURSUANT to the Trustee Act 1925. ALL PERSONS having claims against the estate of JULIA JANE CHAPMAN late of The Hawthorns South Road ... ”


Tuesday 20 June 1944 , Portsmouth Evening News , Hampshire, England

DEATHS
On June 16th. at Ihe Hawthorns, South Road, Uorndean, Julia, widow Charles Chapman, 3, Freestone Road, southsea. Aged 64.


https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

(both are on above)

(and just to add, by reading back, doesn't look like Marriage of John and Elizabeth was found... did add below to earlier post)

Chris :)

01 June 1889 - Thetford & Watton Times and People's Weekly Journal

Death
On the 22nd ult, at Hockering, John Brighty, carrier, aged 79, surviving his wife one year and eleven months.


Deaths Jun 1889 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------
BRIGHTY John 80 Mitford 4b 170


Deaths Jun 1887 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------
Brighty Elizabeth 75 Mitford 4b 178

(if relating)


Baptism
County Norfolk
Place Hockering
Church name St Michael
Register type Transcript
Register entry number 501
Baptism date 1811
Person forename Elizabeth
Person sex F
Father forename Robert
Father surname RAMM
Mother forename Lucy
Mother surname DAWSON

(from things google, Robert Ramm, a wheelwright/Blacksmith. Burial 1846 Hockering. Lucy Burial 1856 Hockering)


http://www.origins.org.uk/genuki/NFK/places/h/hockering/

(mentions in Directories on above, also John)


Edits (for other query, just to add, noticed a John Fillip?, witness on 1821 Marriage (London, Ancestry) only similar seems to be below?)

1851 (Find My Past)
John Fillip Head Married Male 30 1821 Brewer's Dray Man Isle of Man, Isle of Man, Isle of Man (age 50 on image)
Eliza Fillip Wife Married Female 52 1799 Dress Maker Southwark, Surrey, England
John Fillip Son - Male 21 1830 Watch Maker Southwark, Surrey, England
Street Dudley Street
Parish Saint Giles in the Fields
City Finsbury
County Middlesex
Parliamentary borough Finsbury
Registration district St Giles in the Fields & St George Bloomsbury
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 1509
Folio 402
Page 39

(as you know from his Probate, Thomas Oxley, Potato Merchant, Southwark)


(other references, FMP)

Clements Thomas Oxley — 1831 Southwark Rate Books
(Market Street, Boro)


CLEMENTS THOMAS OXLEY — 1838 England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 St. Luke, London, England


Clements Thomas Oxley 1801 — 1838 Greater London Burial Index Lambeth, St John the Evangelist, Waterloo, London, Surrey, England


Clements Thomas Oxley 1806 — 1843 Greater London Burial Index Tower Hamlets, London, Middlesex
(removed from St. John, Waterloo)

Thanks Chris. I see among the directories on genuki an edition of Kelly's, is there somewhere where copies of Kelly's are collected or are they distributed over lots of sites?

The reason I ask is that I found a reference to Sobieski here:

http://newcutmarket.blogspot.fr/2014/05/kellys-postal-directory-list-lower.html

(see #45) which is an extract from one edition of Kelly's.

Please can you say where you are going with the Fillip reference?

Keith