Genealogy Chat

From this website, Lloyd seems to have married Winifred Cordell O'Shea, who died 18 Jan 1999, aged 86.

http://www.family.joint.net.au/index.php?mid=14&cid=800



Winifred C Oshea
in the Australia, Marriage Index, 1788-1950
Name: Winifred C Oshea
Spouse Name: Lloyd G Chapman
Marriage Date: 1935
Marriage Place: New South Wales
Registration Place: Quiindi, New South Wales
Registration Year: 1935
Registration Number: 17686

She and Lloyd are on ERs for many years in Tamworth, NSW, living in a house called "Con Amour".
Lloyd was a poultry farmer.


Winifred Cordell Chapman
in the Web: International, Find A Grave Index
Name: Winifred Cordell Chapman
Death Date: 1999
Burial Place: Moonbi, New South Wales, Australia
URL:

Thank you all for all the ideas, I’ve spent the morning working through some of your finds. Here’s an interim response, as you can see I’m barely halfway through …

Eliza Brighty: I only have the marriage record in which her father’s occupation is given as farmer (although it’s not easy to read). It therefore ties in with the C1871 which SylviaInCanada found. Mind you, the Brightys offer lots of opportunity for interpretation ;-))

I too wondered whether Thomas & Eliza might have emigrated but I found no matching travel records.

This looks highly probable:

CHAPMAN, THOMAS DANIEL BRIGHTY
GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 240

As does this:

Deaths Mar 1884 (>99%)
Chapman Thomas 0 Croydon 2a 177

This is definitely Daniel’s death:

CHAPMAN, DANIEL 51
GRO Reference: 1885 M Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 306

confirmed by this probate record:

Chapman Daniel 15 April The will of Daniel Chapman, formerly of 1 Ravensdon Street Kennington Park but late of 165 Fentiman Road Clapham Road both in the county of Surrey Clerk in the employ of the London and South-Western Railway Company who died 26 March 1885 at 165 Fentiman Road was proved at the Principal Registry by Thomas Daniel Chapman clerk in the employ of the said railway company and Charles Herbert Oxley Chapman Bookseller's clerk both of 165 Fentiman Road the sons of the executors
Personal estate £168 5s 10d

which also incidentally gives an address for TDOC in 1885. However it also makes this possible death problematic:

Deaths Mar 1884 (>99%)
Chapman Thomas 0 Croydon 2a 177

The information on other members of the Chapman clan is also very useful, thanks!

And that C1891 for Rose looks correct, SylviaInCanada.

Thank you very much, SylviaInCanada & safc, the C1901 Wandsworth is exactly right and gives Eliza'a birthplace etc. Which blows a hole in my hypothesis that the Eliza in the 1881 is Thomas' wife. I'm still puzzled why I couldn't find that 1901 record ...

Which leaves us (me!) with the problem of the "first" Eliza Chapman who gave her birthplace as Durham. But which Eliza Chapman from Durham, and how / why did a station agent from Hampshire have a child in Durham?

Keith

(not sure if below already posted)

Chris :)

1939 Register (Find My Past)

77 Swaffield Road , Wandsworth, London,
Thomas D Chapman Inmate 23 Jan 1884 Male Dentist Registered Widowed


http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Wandsworth/

(77 coming up on google)

Thanks Chris! There's reference earlier to him being a dentist, I just haven't got to it yet! I'm still filling in the details two generations earlier.
Keith

To clarify re the child who died in Croydon in 1884:-

As the Thomas Daniel born in Croydon in 1884 is the only Chapman / Brighty child born 1881-85, I think Daniel, who is with Eliza in 1901 and 1911, is that child.

The Thomas who died in infancy in Croydon is a red herring, I think.
This will be that child's birth:
Births Mar 1884 (>99%)
Chapman Thomas Croydon 2a 293

1901 says Daniel's YOB is 1882, but 1911 says 1884.
Penge is in Croydon reg district.

Re Eliza in the 1881 census, apparently born Durham -

The image doesn't say whether either Thomas or Eliza is married or unmarried. although all the other adults in the family are designated one or the other.

Theory -
maybe Eliza in 1881 is actually Eliza Brighty, living with Thomas, as yet unmarried but using the name Chapman.
Hockering is very near Dereham.
Perhaps when the clerk was taking the details, Eliza said she was born in Dereham, and he thought she said Durham.

Her YOB varies a lot in the censuses - from 1851 to 1857, although she was born at the end of 1850.

If the 1891 census posted by Sylvia today at 1:47 is the correct one for Eliza, then maybe (long shot) this is her son Thomas Daniel:

Thomas Chapman
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Thomas Chapman
Age: 7
Estimated birth year: abt 1884
Gender: Male
Where born: Not known
Civil Parish: Sutton
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Sutton
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address: Brighton Road
Occupation:
Registration district: Epsom
ED, institution, or vessel: S M D School for Boys and Girls
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 545
Folio: 137
Page Number: 13


South Metropolitan District Industrial School:

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/SouthMetSD/

(could be that Dereham/Durham theory there AG, might be the ol' Norfolk accent!, lol)

Chris :)

(wondered if below)

Deaths Mar 1966 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
CHAPMAN THOMAS D 82 HOUNSLOW 5C 549


(not sure when Eliza died?, one on below 1914)

http://burials.wandsworth.gov.uk/

Deaths Jun 1914 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------
Chapman Eliza 59 Wandsworth 1d 538

We haven't yet found Eliza's husband Thomas after 1881 - or have I missed it?

She's still calling herself married in 1911.

EDIT:
No, she's not - she's widowed by 1911.
"Married" in 1901.

I had come up with exactly the same hypothesis as ArgyllGran about Thomas and Eliza in C1881. I really like the Durham / Dereham confusion theory (because it might mean I can rescue the hypothesis) but just how realistic is it?

Thomas was named in the probate I posted earlier dated 1885.

Keith

(saw below advert)

Chris :)

20 September 1884 - Western Morning News - Plymouth, Devon, England

Miscellaneous Wants.
Coal Trade. Wanted.
Retail Business in Devon or Cornwall. Full particulars in writing to B.R., Mr. Chapman, 165 Fentiman Road, London

(same 18th September)

Any idea what B.R. might mean, please Chris?

That's definitely the right address.

(no idea on that Keith, could be initials of somebody, or something 'railway' related)

Chris :)

(just to add, a Baptism and Burial for below)

Births Mar 1884 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
Chapman Thomas Croydon 2a 293


Surrey, England, Church of England Burials, 1813-1987 (Ancestry)

Thomas Chapman
abt 1884 28 Feb 1884 Merton, St Mary
Parents, Thomas/Elizabeth. Abode, West Barnes)

I had the same hypothesis re Thomas and Eliza in 1881, but hadn't picked up on the accent for Dereham vs Durham.

That does make it a real possibility that she is Eliza Brighty.

possible birth registration for Lloyd George

CHAPMAN, LLOYD GEORGE OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 661


Marriage of Daniel and Mabel ............

Marriages Sep 1906 (>99%)

CHAPMAN Daniel Wandsworth 1d 1471
OAKLEY Mabel Louisa Wandsworth 1d 1471

possible other children

CHAPMAN, LAURENCE DANIEL OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1912 S Quarter in LAMBETH Volume 01D Page 762





I think these children belong to another Chapman/Oakley marriage ........

CHAPMAN, ELIZABETH MAY OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1908 D Quarter in DOWNHAM Volume 04B Page 293

CHAPMAN, ELLEN MAUD OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1911 S Quarter in DOWNHAM Volume 04B Page 588

CHAPMAN, CORA OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1913 J Quarter in AUCKLAND Volume 10A Page 444

CHAPMAN, TOM OAKLEY
GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in AUCKLAND Volume 10A Page 519



NOTE:- the new GRO Index ends at 1915, but mmn is shown on Freebmd from July 1911.

Chris - there are two Thomas Chapmans (Chapmen?) born Croydon 1884, the one you found and:

CHAPMAN, THOMAS DANIEL BRIGHTY
GRO Reference: 1884 M Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 240

They might, of course, both refer to the same birth.

The burial is very tempting!

What was the census process in 1881? Data collector knocks on door, asks questions, and writes down answers, then transfers his notes to the official return? I've seen some pretty wild associations between towns and counties in the census, did this rely on the local knowledge (or lack of it) of the data collector?

Name: Eliza Brighty
Registration Year: 1853
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Henstead

Inferred County: Norfolk
Volume: 4b
Page: 186

Henstead is quite a hike from Dereham ...

Thomas Chapman born 1884 Croydon will be the one who also died in Croydon 1884 - posted earlier.

Thomas Daniel Chapman is Eliza's son, called Daniel in 1901 and 1911.

Keith, I don't think that 1853 Henstead birth is Eliza's.

I think it's this one, which Sylvia posted on page 1:

Births Sep 1850 (>99%)
Brighty Eliza Mitford &c 13 229

Mitford district includes Hockering, which is what's given as Eliza's birthplace in all except the 1881 census.
Dereham 's only about 7 miles from Hockering, and she might have said that in 1881, thinking that nobody would have heard of the small village of Hockering.

I wonder if this could be Eliza's husband Thomas?

The probate record above says he was working for LSWR in 1885.

This person started working for them in 1876, and was still with them in 1910, as an assistant station master. His service number is 10089. DOB would fit the birth record posted on page 1 by Sylvia:

Thos Chapman
in the UK, Railway Employment Records, 1833-1956
Name: Thos Chapman
Age: 18
Birth Date: 25 Oct 1857
Residence Date: May 1876
Station: Euston
Company: London and North Western
Description: Register of salaried and Wages staff in the coaching department. Includes stationmasters, porters, van drivers, waiting room attendants, ticket collectors and clerks. ... 1902 - 1911


[ EDIT:
If that's him, he must have died 1910-11, as Eliza says she's a widow in 1911 census. ]

Here he is again - no 10089, started in May 1876, birthdate given slightly wronog (25 Oct 1885):
This record seems to go to 1889, when he's a foreman porter:

Thos Chapman
in the UK, Railway Employment Records, 1833-1956
Name: Thos Chapman
Age: 20
Birth Date: 25 Oct 1855
Residence Date: Aug 1876
Station: Euston
Company: London and North Western
Description: Register of salaried and Wages staff in the coaching, traffic and police departments. Includes stationmasters, porters, inspectors, guards, ticket collectors and clerks (coaching), tariffmen, breaksmen and shunters (traffic) and signalmen and gatesme