Genealogy Chat

Maybe this family in 1901???

The original looks more like Dore or Dors.

Karl is German for Charles

Birth Place: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: Ordsall in Salford St Clement
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England


View image
Registration district: Salford
Sub-registration District: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3735
Folio: 97
Page Number: 4
Household schedule number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Karl Doris 33 - ship's fireman - Germany foreign subject
Sarah A Doris 31
Karl Doris 2
William Doris 11 months
Harry Thorpe 26
Catherine Thorpe 29
William Thorpe 5
John Thorpe 2
Elizabeth Whittingham 33
Robert Whittingham 10
Florence Whittingham 1

What address is given on the marriage cert? What name was Fred known by - Dore or Whitham?

(16, Long St., Salford. (given as Last place of Abode for William Whitham 1935, on below)

Deaths at sea, 1781-1968 Transcription (Find My Past)


(adding again, an address above, if it 'rings any bells' with anything!)

Chris :)

edits

(have often seen people asking for help on families in local newspapers, sometimes names can jog a memory with a local!)

Karen .................

an English or Welsh marriage certificate does not give the year of birth of either groom or bride .............. it gives the age in years

and anyone can lie on a marriage certificate ................ about age, name, marital status, name of father


One does not have to show any kind of documentation to prove your age, marital status (eg, divorced, widowed or single), or name of your father.



so what age does it give for William?




I do not know whether he would have had to produce a birth certificate when he joined the merchant navy. It is entirely possible that he did not

Karen


in England and Wales, anyone can change their name, as long as it is not for nefarious purposes.

There are several ways of doing this ................

1. By Deed Poll .......... which requires paying a lawyer to do it. There is often a record of this type of name change on the National Archives site


2. By publishing a notice in the legal notices section of a local newspaper that will say basically ............... "as of January 15 1920, I, Jim Smith, will henceforward be called Charley Horseswinger. Charley Horseswinger will not be responsible for any debts owed by Jim Smith".

I saw lots of such notices in my home town newspaper back in the 1950s and 1960s.

The cost for the insertion of the notice is very small.


3. Simply by announcing to those who need to that you will be called Charley Horseswinger from such-and-such a date.

Those who "need to know" would include the bank, family, and possibly no-one else.

No cost.

Sometimes no-one would be told :-)



Most people went the route of the second or third alternative.



and it was, and I believe still is, perfectly legal.



There will of course be no record of any name changes by the second or third alternative, unless you can happen to find the legal notice in the paper.



Many people with Germanic names did indeed change their names ................... but this was much more common during WW1.


I simply cannot think of any reason why anyone would need to change their name before 1900.



I have seen occasions when helping others where a name change occurred because one member of the family was a criminal, or the family had got into a lot of trouble in their home village or town .......... they moved elsewhere, changed their name, and got a fresh start (one hopes)

PS my dad also told me that they got the name Whitham off a butcher shop!!

Also on the wedding certificate it states Charles Whitham deceased and also a merchant seaman. Cant find him either!!!!! Very frustrating. Its like they never existed

I was told by my father that they originally came from Germany. Some were interned on the Isle of White with the name Dore. I do not know anything else except that some of the sons were in the navy and army fighting for England whilst their parents were interned. I am assuming that the name was changed by Charles Whitham that is noted on William Whitham's marriage certificate deceased in 1923. William Whitham could be older or younger than 1899 I have exhausted all avenues of finding his birth certificate. When he join the Merchant Navy did he not have to produce a birth certificate. It states on all his discharges that he was born in 1899 Salford Lancashire.

'deceased' fathers sometimes didn't exist............to cover illegitimacy.

A person can call himself whatever he wishes, as long as there is no intent to deceive or defraud

from your post....

They were called Dore and some of them did not change their name in the first world war.

Please explain

Rootgatherer I have the marriage certificate. Thats how I found Elizabeth Nunn's parents.

William Whitham marriage certificate to Elizabeth Nunn states he was born in 1899 fathers name was Charles Whitham noted on marriage certificate deceased. Merchant navy seamen records state he was born in Salford Lancashire date of death 1935 at sea. I have researched all birth certificates for that period and none of the fathers names are Charles. They were called Dore and some of them did not change their name in the first world war. I know this as my mother said that my fathers uncle lived in the same street Broomhall Road in Swinton which must of been William Whithams brother his name was Fred that was in 1957. Are there records that show change of name (deed poll). Surely people couldnt just change their name and there are no records? :-(

I agree Jacqueline, I don't think Karen has the marriage certificate, just the GRO reference details from the index. Given that William's son seems to have emigrated, perhaps that is why Karen doesn't have the certificate.

Karen, you really need to buy that marriage certificate and hopefully it will provide enough information to trace William's birth. Then you can base your tree on fact.

I will let Karen know she has replies.

I would think that the reference to the marriage 'cert' actually means the GRO index.

The marriage was not CofE, so no hope of info on LancsOPC.

The marriage to Elizabeth produced two children, the younger of them being Karen's father (William)

British Army WWI Medal Rolls Index Cards1914-1920
Charles W Whitham Manchester Regiment, Machine Gun Corps 2326, 133756

(a possible)

Chris :)

That tree that had the information as to the parents being Charles Mellor Whitham and Emily Critchley was in the name of Karen Whitham ............. which is what made me think it was Karen of this thread.


and it does seem to be the only tree with both those names



Maybe this is why she is asking for help?

.??

Name: Charles William Whitham
Birth Date: 18 Jul 1893
Date of Registration: Dec 1979
Age at Death: 86
Registration district: Stockport
Inferred County: Greater Manchester
Volume: 39
Page: 1345

I am not sure how much of those trees on Ancestry are based on hard facts. In some cases the shipping records seem only to have a name and age and could refer to any William Whitham born around 1899. Also while many have a date for the marriage to Elizabeth Nunn, they have no parents names as has already been pointed out. I just wonder if it is another case of people copying from another tree without verifying the information.

I think the original poster really needs to return with the details from the marriage certificate before we can actually help. If the poster is working on hearsay and doesn't have the marriage certificate, then I would say that that is a priority.

Name: Charles Whitham
Baptism Date: 9 Aug 1893
Parish: Salford, Stowell Memorial Church
Parish as it Appears: Stowell Memorial
Father's Name: Charles Whitham
Mother's name: Emily Whitham
Reference Number: L73/1/1/2
Item Number: 7
Archive Roll: 915


His marriage

Name: Charles William Whitham
Birth Year: abt 1894
Age: 28
Marriage Date: 13 Apr 1922
Parish: Cheetham, St Luke
Parish as it Appears: Cheetham, St Luke
Father's Name: Charles Mellor Whitham
Spouse's Name: Mary Gladys Heys
Spouse's Father's Name: James William Heys
Reference Number: GB127.M339/1/2/3


Not seeing a death for him at the moment but he doesn't seem to be Karen's William.

Ages consistent in 1901.

Name: Emily Whitham
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Spouse: Charles M Whitham
Birth Place: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
Ecclesiastical parish: Salford Stowell Memorial
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Salford
Sub-registration District: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 55
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3738
Folio: 189
Page Number: 44
Household schedule number: 276
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles M Whitham 44
Emily Whitham 41
Louisa M Whitham 17
Sarah A Whitham 15
Beatrice Whitham 12
Eliza Whitham 9
Charles W Whitham 7
Emily Whitham 4



Name: Charles William Whitham
Registration Year: 1893
Registration Quarter: Jul-Aug-Sep
Registration district: Salford
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 154

1911

Name: Emily Heap
Age in 1911: 51
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Salford, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Salford
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 54 Vere St Eccles New Rd Salford
Marital Status: Widowed
Registration district: Salford
Registration District Number: 465
Sub-registration district: Regent Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Piece: 24072
Household Members:
Name Age
Emily Heap 51
Sarah Alice Whitham 25
Beatrice Whitham 22
Eliza Whitham 19
Charles William Whitham 17 Salesman
Emily Whitham 14
Louisa Whitham 27 Married Daughter

Emily has given the number of years for both her marriages and 8 children born, 6 living, 2 had died....... So no son named William born 1899 only Charles William born c1894.